CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > Canadian Electrical Code Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 10
Default Proper Grounding and installation of 200 amp service

I want to clarify how to properly ground and install a 120/240 200A service (based on CEC code requirements). Here are two scenarios:

1) Install system grounding conductor in meter base by running insulated copper wire from meter base to ground rods (or ground plate) and bond to system neutral on service side of meter base. From the meter base run 2 black and one white to combination panel with main disconnect. Neutral lug is bonded to ground bar in 200 A combination panel. System is properly grounded.

2) In house with copper water pipes install system grounding conductor in 200 A combination panel by running insulated green wire to copper water pipe (before water meter) and attach using an appropriate connector. From the meter base run 2 black and one white to combination panel with main disconnect. Neutral lug is bonded to ground bar in 200 A combination panel. System is properly grounded.

For any additional sub-panels you would run 2 black, 1 white and a green from the main panel to the sub-panel and disconnect bonding between the neutral bar and the ground bar in the sub-panel. This ensures the neutral does not have two separate system grounding points.

Are the two scenarios I have identified correct?

Please let me know.

AF, NB Canada

wdthrush01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Old 02-18-2013, 07:53 PM   #2
Electrical Contractor
 
wcord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 2,090
Rewards Points: 1,850
Default

You don't bond your neutral in the meter socket

wcord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 585
Rewards Points: 1,500
Default

Are asking if you bond the meter socket? Yes you do.
Wpgshocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:03 PM   #4
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wcord View Post
You don't bond your neutral in the meter socket
You can and in fact it is advised here now in Saskatchewan in some instances. This was brought up at the 2012 code review. Mostly with dual lug bases.

The conductor in both scenarios does not have to be insulated.

If you bond the neutral in the meter, then you shouldn't in the panel and there should be a bond wire extending from the panel to the meter.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:07 PM   #5
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

The issue I have is running emt or any metallic pipe or sheath to a meter socket. The neutral lug is attached to the meter can. By bonding the neutral in the panel and then running metal to the meter, you are creating a parallel neutral path are you not?

I have run my ground into a meter before, and seen prior installations that have done the same.
More than anything I have taken to just using pvc instead of emt or teck.

Last edited by farlsincharge; 02-18-2013 at 08:09 PM.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:15 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 585
Rewards Points: 1,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlsincharge
The issue I have is running emt or any metallic pipe or sheath to a meter socket. The neutral lug is attached to the meter can. By bonding the neutral in the panel and then running metal to the meter, you are creating a parallel neutral path are you not?

I have run my ground into a meter before, and seen prior installations that have done the same.
More than anything I have taken to just using pvc instead of emt or teck.
You are not bonding the neutral. The neutral is grounded to the street side of the water meter, bonding provides electrical continuity to the panel. If you run pvc you need to run a bond to the meter socket.
If you run EMT that is sufficient for bonding. You don't use your EMT to carry your neutral current.

Last edited by Wpgshocker; 02-18-2013 at 08:19 PM.
Wpgshocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:23 PM   #7
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wpgshocker View Post
You are not bonding the neutral. The neutral is grounded to the street side of the water meter, bonding provides electrical continuity to the panel. If you run pvc you need to run a bond to the meter socket.
If you run EMT that is sufficient for bonding. You don't use your EMT to carry your neutral current.
The meter can is bonded to the neutral lug from factory and that is sufficient to bond it, same as a splitter can.

If your neutral is bonded in the panel and you run emt to the meter, the emt is a parallel neutral path (not a good thing).

The neutral lug in a meter should be insulated from the can IMO.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 585
Rewards Points: 1,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlsincharge

The meter can is bonded to the neutral lug from factory and that is sufficient to bond it, same as a splitter can.

If your neutral is bonded in the panel and you run emt to the meter, the emt is a parallel neutral path (not a good thing).

The neutral lug in a meter should be insulated from the can IMO.
Huh?

Your neutral and bond "meet" at the panel. Bonding is an alternate path to ground, it is not used to carry neutral current unless something bad happens, that's why it is there, to ensure continuity. How did you decide that the bond is meant to carry neutral current?
Why the hell would you attach your system neutral to the bond at the meter?
Wpgshocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:36 PM   #9
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

I don't want it to carry current, but it will no matter how much I protest. It is in parallel

The neutral is bonded to ground in the panel. The neutral lug in the meter is bolted to the can. If you run metal between the panel and the meter it will carry current. If the neutral conductor or connection is damaged it will carry a lot of current.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 08:58 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 585
Rewards Points: 1,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlsincharge
I don't want it to carry current, but it will no matter how much I protest. It is in parallel

The neutral is bonded to ground in the panel. The neutral lug in the meter is bolted to the can. If you run metal between the panel and the meter it will carry current. If the neutral conductor or connection is damaged it will carry a lot of current.
I am getting trolled aren't I?
Wpgshocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 09:01 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regina, Sask, Canada
Posts: 703
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlsincharge View Post
The issue I have is running emt or any metallic pipe or sheath to a meter socket.
You should have been here a hundred years ago. It's way too late to start worrying about that.
xlink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 09:53 PM   #12
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga/Hamilton, Al
Posts: 4,868
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

I've never seen a meter socket where it was optional to bond the neutral or not. Every one I have ever seen has the neutral bolted to the can.

That being said, we have had the discussion before about metal conduits connected to meter enclosures and bonded panels. It is legal, and yet it is also a parallel path for neutral current. But in most cases it is in a very limited distance and only on that pipe.

In my opinion, it should be legal to run 4 wires from a meter socket and isolate the ground at the panel, or have the option of un-bonding the neutral from the meter can and bring a bond back to it from the panel.
InPhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to InPhase277 For This Useful Post:
BBQ (02-20-2013)
Old 02-18-2013, 10:36 PM   #13
123
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 163
Rewards Points: 150
Default

The house service neutral is grounded at a transformer on the street and also at the house.
A parallel path through a ground.
If you have another building, with a service on your property, like a garage, the subpanel’s neutral has to be grounded to its own ground rods.
Another parallel path through a ground.
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 123 For This Useful Post:
xlink (02-18-2013)
Old 02-19-2013, 02:12 PM   #14
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 123 View Post
The house service neutral is grounded at a transformer on the street and also at the house.
A parallel path through a ground.
If you have another building, with a service on your property, like a garage, the subpanel’s neutral has to be grounded to its own ground rods.
Another parallel path through a ground.
Yes but the poco's feed does not incorporate a metal sheath or a bonding conductor. The parallel path is the earth which usually isn't that great. If there is a neutral issue it will show up a lot more readily than if using metal as a parallel path.

How is the subpanel fed in your second scenario? From the main panel in the house? Dual lug meter socket?

If it is a dual lug socket, the powers that be here in Saskatchewan would prefer the neutral bonded to ground at the meter and a bond extended to the garage with the neutral isolated. The reasoning for this is to prevent neutral currents from flowing on gas lines which would be shared between the two structures.

If it is from the main house panel, I know of no requirement that requires ground rods. Unless the building houses livestock or some such. Or did that change in 2012?

I don't mean to sound condescending or anything. I am far from knowing everything. Just trying to facilitate a discussion and maybe learn some things.

Last edited by farlsincharge; 02-19-2013 at 02:18 PM.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 02:39 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regina, Sask, Canada
Posts: 703
Rewards Points: 500
Default

What about two houses, side by side, with metal water lines? The water lines are connected to the neutrals in both houses. For a fact, if one neighbour has a bad neutral, opening the ground in the other house will light you up.
xlink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 03:00 PM   #16
123
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ontario
Posts: 163
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farlsincharge View Post

If it is from the main house panel, I know of no requirement that requires ground rods. Unless the building houses livestock or some such. Or did that change in 2012?

.
rule 10-208
If the secondary building is supplied from a main panel, there are 2 methods.

1) separate grounding electrodes, and in this case portion of the current goes through a ground, and if a cow stands in a mud, in a path of the current, portion of the current could go through the cow. Urine soaked mud is an excellent conductor.
This method is for any building, but is the only method for livestock.

2) bonding to a main panel ( not for livestock building)
This doesn’t guarantee the ground and the bonded surfaces to be at the same potential.
The cow would also get zapped.
You are right,
for a garage both methods are fine

Last edited by 123; 02-19-2013 at 03:11 PM.
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 03:25 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 10
Default Further clarification

Thank you for all of the responses. I would like to clarify further by adding some more detail to the scenarios I originally posted which may help the discussion. Here it is:

Scenario 1:

Install system grounding conductor in meter base by running properly sized copper wire from ground lug in meter base to ground rods (or ground plate). From the meter base run 2 black and one white to combination panel with main disconnect. Neutral lug is bonded to ground bar in 200 A combination panel. The system is properly grounded via the neutral wire between panel and meter base. (note that PVC pipe used between meter base and main 200A panel)

In this scenario the system grounding conductor is run from the meter base simply for convenience. It is easier to get a wire to ground from outside a house or building than it is from the inside. You don't actually need to run the system grounding conductor for the meter base as someone has mentioned as the neutral lug is bolted to the can which automatically bonds the meter can (by supply side neutral which is grounded at the supply authority transformer).

Scenario 2:

In house with copper water pipes install system grounding conductor in 200 A combination panel by running properly sized copper wire to water pipe (before water meter - street side) and attach using an appropriate connector. From the meter base run 2 black and one white to combination panel with main disconnect. Neutral lug is bonded to ground bar in 200 A combination panel. System is properly grounded. The meter base is also bonded to ground via the supply side neutral. (note that PVC pipe used between meter base and main 200A panel)

I have seen both scenarios working in New Brunswick. I am most concerned about scenario 1 and if it is proper (which I am told that it is).

AF, NB Canada
wdthrush01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 07:45 PM   #18
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlink View Post
What about two houses, side by side, with metal water lines? The water lines are connected to the neutrals in both houses. For a fact, if one neighbour has a bad neutral, opening the ground in the other house will light you up.
I have seen that lots, or through the bonded gas lines. I don't know what the complete answer is, but it is unsafe. Especially because the potentially energized systems are worked on by people unfamiliar with electricity.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 08:15 PM   #19
Sideways Sparky
 
farlsincharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SK Canada
Posts: 1,427
Rewards Points: 1,004
Default

I think your scenario 1 is okay and i think it would pass here, but you would have to be able to terminate the grounding conductor to the neutral lug assembly itself. Running it to the bonding strip would not fly. Any other thoughts on that?

Last edited by farlsincharge; 02-19-2013 at 08:31 PM.
farlsincharge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 08:41 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Regina, Sask, Canada
Posts: 703
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Grounding in the meter base is uncommon and I avoid it because the inspector can't check it. He'll phone you, at least. If you ground in the meter base I think you don't bond the neutral in the panel. farlsincharge seems to be the expert on that.

As you already know, #2 is fine providing the ground is terminated on the line side neutral bar. It's because the ground screw is not rated for the fault current.

xlink is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proper grounding DGN General Electrical Discussion 2 12-07-2012 10:50 AM
Proper grounding of a 3 family dwelling. jdawg523 Services and Service Equipment 16 05-05-2012 11:05 PM
Proper receptacle grounding... erics37 General Electrical Discussion 9 09-17-2011 11:35 PM
Proper grounding methos RIVETER General Electrical Discussion 20 06-28-2010 02:37 PM
Proper Grounding? reddog552 Commercial Electrical Forum 37 12-21-2009 11:57 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:00 PM.


Copyright © 2006-2014 Escalate Media LP. All Rights Reserved
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com