AFCI in commercial - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

hardworkingstiff · 07-31-2012, 06:50 AM

I thought I read on this site that the 2011 code requires AFCI on 120-volt 15/20-amp receptacles in commercial buildings. It it's true, would someone be kind enough to point me to the codes section that requires it?

Thanks,

HARRY304E · 07-31-2012, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardworkingstiff

I thought I read on this site that the 2011 code requires AFCI on 120-volt 15/20-amp receptacles in commercial buildings. It it's true, would someone be kind enough to point me to the codes section that requires it?

Thanks,

No they are not as of yet.

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.
Informational Note No. 1: For information on types of
arc-fault circuit interrupters, see UL 1699-1999, Standard
for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
Informational Note No. 2: See 11.6.3(5) of NFPA 72-
2010, National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, for information
related to secondary power supply requirements for
smoke alarms installed in dwelling units.
Informational Note No. 3: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B)
for power-supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
Exception No. 1: If RMC, IMC, EMT, Type MC, or steel
armored Type AC cables meeting the requirements of
250.118 and metal outlet and junction boxes are installed
for the portion of the branch circuit between the branchcircuit
overcurrent device and the first outlet, it shall be
permitted to install an outlet branch-circuit type AFCI at
the first outlet to provide protection for the remaining portion
of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 2: Where a listed metal or nonmetallic conduit
or tubing is encased in not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of
concrete for the portion of the branch circuit between the
branch-circuit overcurrent device and the first outlet, it
shall be permitted to install an outlet branch-circuit type
AFCI at the first outlet to provide protection for the remaining
portion of the branch circuit.
Exception No. 3: Where an individual branch circuit to a
fire alarm system installed in accordance with 760.41(B) or
760.121(B) is installed in RMC, IMC, EMT, or steelsheathed
cable, Type AC or Type MC, meeting the requirements
of 250.118, with metal outlet and junction boxes,
AFCI protection shall be permitted to be omitted.
(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit.

Shockdoc · 07-31-2012, 07:11 AM

And hopefully will never be , at that point I'm moving to a third world where they are not required.

chicken steve · 07-31-2012, 07:23 AM

afci's have been the numero uno callback bane of my existence since '98

if i could have charged the manufacturer, i'd be a happy man about it all

since they remain uncuppable, and beyond reproach, my 'tude about their crappy product that doesn't do jack for circuit safety will most likely be sour

~CS~

oldtimer · 07-31-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicken steve

afci's have been the numero uno callback bane of my existence since '98

if i could have charged the manufacturer, i'd be a happy man about it all

since they remain uncuppable, and beyond reproach, my 'tude about their crappy product that doesn't do jack for circuit safety will most likely be sour

~CS~

W T H is uncuppable ? Not in the dictionary !

BBQ · 07-31-2012, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockdoc

And hopefully will never be , at that point I'm moving to a third world where they are not required.

Vic is right ......

HARRY304E · 07-31-2012, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicken steve

afci's have been the numero uno callback bane of my existence since '98

if i could have charged the manufacturer, i'd be a happy man about it all

since they remain uncuppable, and beyond reproach, my 'tude about their crappy product that doesn't do jack for circuit safety will most likely be sour

~CS~

You should be charging the customer to troubleshoot those it's not your fault they suck.

retiredsparktech · 07-31-2012, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

You should be charging the customer to troubleshoot those it's not your fault they suck.

When my Sister and BIL moved into their new home in Florida, the builder's agent took them though an orientation session about all the mechanicals of the house. There was a great deal of time spent on the operation of the AFCI's and what to look for if one trips. To my knowledge, they never had any problems. They just dislike the TR recepticles.
P.S. Isn't that unculpable???

sbrn33 · 07-31-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicken steve

afci's have been the numero uno callback bane of my existence since '98

if i could have charged the manufacturer, i'd be a happy man about it all

since they remain uncuppable, and beyond reproach, my 'tude about their crappy product that doesn't do jack for circuit safety will most likely be sour

~CS~

We hardly ever have trouble. Maybe your doing something wrong.
Are you tying noodles together or stapling to hard?

HARRY304E · 07-31-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredsparktech

When my Sister and BIL moved into their new home in Florida, the builder's agent took them though an orientation session about all the mechanicals of the house. There was a great deal of time spent on the operation of the AFCI's and what to look for if one trips. To my knowledge, they never had any problems. They just dislike the TR recepticles.
P.S. Isn't that unculpable???

My elderly customers have trouble plugging stuff into the TR's

hardworkingstiff · 07-31-2012, 09:53 AM

I guess I'm a hack. I just replaced every switch and receptacle in my house and did not add AFCI breakers and don't intend to.

Big John · 07-31-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbrn33

We hardly ever have trouble. Maybe your doing something wrong....

When I was building houses (before the whole-house AFCI requirement) we actually had a guy who was forbidden to wire bedrooms because he'd had a reputation for causing neutral faults that tripped the AFCIs.

Why that company continued to employ someone who they knew did crap work is another story....

-John

Shockdoc · 07-31-2012, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBQ

Vic is right ......

And you would like to see them in commercial applications?

OK lets imagine a supermarket and deli section with AFCI protection.

btharmy · 07-31-2012, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockdoc

And hopefully will never be , at that point I'm moving to a third world where they are not required.

Or, just move to Indiana.

TimChaput69 · 07-31-2012, 11:07 PM

That's exactly what happened in India........someone installed a AFCI somewhere!!

BBQ · 08-01-2012, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

My elderly customers have trouble plugging stuff into the TR's

Of course they also have trouble with medicine bottles, driving faster than 15 MPH and not soiling themselves.

chicken steve · 08-01-2012, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldtimer

W T H is uncuppable ? Not in the dictionary !

i meant inculpable, as in blameless Old Timer ~CS~

chicken steve · 08-01-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbrn33

We hardly ever have trouble. Maybe your doing something wrong.
Are you tying noodles together or stapling to hard?

my callback rate is near zero on new construction, save for the afci's

some of this is due to Vermont having had a longer history with them than the rest of the nation

some was due to the chief inspector here (thankfully retired) insisting on them being included in service upgrades, until it was challenged and summarily dismissed by a Mr Sargent of the nfpa

~CS~

chicken steve · 08-01-2012, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

You should be charging the customer to troubleshoot those it's not your fault they suck.

most new electrical materials are considered warrantied for a year Harry

inasmuch as this is an industry standard that can be challenged in the legal arena, good biz ethics might apply

so here's a scenario for you

30 afci's in a 40 cir can , junk with one close line surge , test buttons all nfg, or suspected nfg

30 x $40 ea.= $1200

time to change out 4 hrs

HO's insurance dodges the bullet

who eats it?

~CS~

Shockdoc · 08-01-2012, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicken steve

my callback rate is near zero on new construction, save for the afci's

some of this is due to Vermont having had a longer history with them than the rest of the nation

some was due to the chief inspector here (thankfully retired) insisting on them being included in service upgrades, until it was challenged and summarily dismissed by a Mr Sargent of the nfpa

~CS~

Who's the Intelligent party that placed manufacturers on the code panel? That is something that should have remained only people in the installation field and fire field. I have not seen anything positive about AFCI breakers , yet I have seen one burned at the terminals . It doesn't protect faults under 3 amps, what are the most common loads used in bedrooms and living spaces ?