Bathroom w/ Door Separating Sinks From Toilet - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

josh5879 · 10-12-2009, 04:01 PM

Would a bathroom like this require GFCI protection at all?
The NEC 2008 Handbook says yes. (On the page of 210.8 (B).)
I couldn't find a source for this
A "bathroom" is defined in 100,Part I as "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower"
This bathroom, however does not have a basin in the same "area" as a toilet, tub or shower.
Can anyone find a reason this would require GFCI protection?

Toronto Sparky · 10-12-2009, 04:11 PM

Water and electricity don't mix?
That would be reason enough for me.
First time razor falls into the sink would justify it.
I ran the lighting on a GFI too.

josh5879 · 10-12-2009, 04:17 PM

Hey, I'm with you, no question common sense tells you this needs GFCI protection, the question is, is it NEC required or not.
The Handbook says yes. Is there a source?

Celtic · 10-12-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh5879

Hey, I'm with you, no question common sense tells you this needs GFCI protection, the question is, is it NEC required or not.
The Handbook says yes. Is there a source?

Are you doubting whether or not the image in the picture is an "area"?

josh5879 · 10-12-2009, 04:40 PM

That's right. If a door doesn't close an area what does.
Maybe the outlets right outside every bathroom are considered in the bathroom? Of course not, theres a door it's a separate room.

RIVETER · 10-12-2009, 04:43 PM

I agree with all of the responses to this question,so far. The bath room is a generic term for Bathroom, Washroom, Dump-room, or what have you. It only makes sense that if you have a sink there and a receptacle, it should have GFCI protection.
Another problem I have seen, a lot, is not paying attention to the correct polarity when installing the light fixtures.

josh5879 · 10-12-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

The bath room is a generic term for Bathroom, Washroom, Dump-room, or what have you.

Sorry bathroom is not a generic term, it is defined by NEC article 100 as "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower"
not what have you.

Celtic · 10-12-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh5879

That's right. If a door doesn't close an area what does.
Maybe the outlets right outside every bathroom are considered in the bathroom? Of course not, theres a door it's a separate room.

Ok...so what word/s would you use to describe these "rooms"?

Extra points in you use NEC terminology

480sparky · 10-12-2009, 05:13 PM

I'd say most likely it's going to be considered a bathroom. Door or no door.

RIVETER · 10-12-2009, 05:17 PM

Ok, I know you are correct. But the intention of the code is that IF, you have a receptacle in that area close to a sink or basin it is cheaper to GFCI protect it than to buy and frame a door to get out of the requirement.

P.S. I hope you have a sense of humor...And the original question, in fact, was a good one.

480sparky · 10-12-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Ok, I know you are correct. But the intention of the code is that IF, you have a receptacle in that area close to a sink or basin it is cheaper to GFCI protect it than to buy and frame a door to get out of the requirement............

The Code could care less which is cheaper.

BryanMD · 10-12-2009, 05:58 PM

maybe you don't know what a "basin" is.

all the other stuff comes AFTER the presence of the basin; so yes GFI.

Celtic · 10-12-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanMD

maybe you don't know what a "basin" is.

all the other stuff comes AFTER the presence of the basin; so yes GFI.

So if we put a recept. where the tub/toilet is [in OP's 1st post] ....then no GFCI protection required ?

BryanMD · 10-12-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

So if we put a recept. where the tub/toilet is [in OP's 1st post] ....then no GFCI protection required ?

Not saying I'd want to be the one to fight it with the ahj...
but as per the code language...if there is no basin.... yeah no gfi either.

re the ahj :
much simpler to just feed that recept downstream of the gfi at the lav

Celtic · 10-13-2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanMD

Not saying I'd want to be the one to fight it with the ahj...
but as per the code language...if there is no basin.... yeah no gfi either.

re the ahj :
much simpler to just feed that recept downstream of the gfi at the lav

Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.

josh5879 · 10-13-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.

That sounds like a very nice distinction, but is that definition backed up by anything?

BryanMD · 10-13-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

Code language says "area"....IMHO, the area begins as you exit the last defined area...be it a hallway, bedroom, kitchen, etc.

as in the last thread on the areas where the SA 20A circuits apply.
you could also say that the toilet and tub are also basins.

the rule affecting comm'l bathrooms may come into play too.
You don't have to install a recep., but if you do it better be GFI protected.

josh5879 · 10-13-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanMD

you could also say that the toilet and tub are also basins.

The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.

BryanMD · 10-13-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh5879

The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.

your grasping at straws dude.

everyone likes to play devils advocate in these as a mental exercise and some are genuinely confused... but don't confuse that with suggesting extreme interpretations are the route to "correctness".

The NEC is about the lowest common denominator. It has to be.

On that basis then... "area" includes the space in proximity to X which has installed fixtures commonly and ordinarily associated to X; regardless of how fancy the "architect" may be with their design.

KISS. Live by it. You'll sleep better.

RIVETER · 10-13-2009, 11:49 AM

BryanMD is correct. The argument is all about what a basin is..."a bowl-shaped vessel usually used for holding liguids, or food."
There are vessels in both rooms...If there is a receptacle in either room, it must be GFCI protected.
RIVETER