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10-13-2009, 11:54 AM
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#21
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 11
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Can you answer this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh5879
The NEC obviously does not consider toilets or tubs to be basins from the wording of the bathroom definition: "an area including a basin with one or more of the following; a toilet, a tub, or a shower". If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.
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10-13-2009, 02:03 PM
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#22
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Not Banned Yet
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Near Baltimore
Posts: 805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh5879
Can you answer this?
If it considered them basins it could have just said two basins.
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and it could have limited the description to sink.
but it didn't... did it?
__________________
Engineering. Where the noble semiskilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream. Hello, Oompa-Loompas of science. -Sheldon
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10-13-2009, 02:52 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 538
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If you were to step into that room with the divider door at my house in the early morning, you would instanly recognise that it is indeed a bathroom, complete with a toilet somewhere in the vicinity. Panasonic fan no less. You could if you were wise and fearless, decipher it as such even if you were 15 feet away from the outer door. Just sayin....... 
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10-13-2009, 03:05 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: kentucky
Posts: 671
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Basin
If you are correctly quoting the code and I think you are, it is saying "with a basin", and the words TOILET ,TUB, OR SHOWER ARE USED TO DESCRIBE THE BASINS usually found in the rooms that we call bathrooms.
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10-13-2009, 03:35 PM
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#25
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh5879
That sounds like a very nice distinction, but is that definition backed up by anything?
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Just by my gigantic cranium 
Seriously though, when common sense fails, you must seek some sense from someone that is supposedly full of it...enter the AHJ
Seriously, seriously now ....what word/s would you describe the "area" as ~ bonus points for using NEC terminology 
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Fountain of Useless Information
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10-13-2009, 03:39 PM
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#26
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Let's try this....
A commercial/public bathroom...
Recepts. ARE installed ~ truckers need their plug in shavers for back hair and what not 
Rows of stalls
Rows of sinks
Does the mere presence of the stall AND door mean the "area" is no longer a "bathroom" as defined by 100?
BTW, this is the ladies bathroom
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10-13-2009, 03:41 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: kentucky
Posts: 671
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Bathroom
Valid point, Celtic.
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10-13-2009, 04:10 PM
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#28
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: WA
Posts: 74
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If that argument was made to me I'd then cite 210.8(A)(7) and I'd label it a utility sink as you utilize it to wash your hands. GFI required no matter what the space is if there is a sink and a receptacle within 6'.
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10-13-2009, 04:34 PM
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#29
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIVETER
Valid point, Celtic.
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The part about the woman truck drivers shaving their backs, right?
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10-13-2009, 04:43 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: kentucky
Posts: 671
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Valid point
You are quick, Celtic; I went in there once, then left quickly. I'm not staying anywhere for long that doesn't have GROUND FAULT PROTECTION.
RIVETER
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10-13-2009, 04:53 PM
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#31
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitro71
If that argument was made to me I'd then cite 210.8(A)(7) and I'd label it a utility sink as you utilize it to wash your hands. GFI required no matter what the space is if there is a sink and a receptacle within 6'.
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You would FAIL.
A utility sink is typical something like this:
Sure you can wash your hands in there ~ but is that the style of sink one normally sees in an area with a toilet?
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10-13-2009, 05:28 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 1,092
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Good point celtic- Now add a partition with a toilet in it.
That sink just turned into a 'basin'. It would need GFI with in 6' reagardless of the 'area'.
I think the key word in all of this is 'AREA'.Op's diagram clearly is an 'AREA'. ask the AHJ.
thats a bathroom all day & nite long.
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10-13-2009, 05:35 PM
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#33
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leland
I think the key word in all of this is 'AREA'.
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Kind of hard to be exact with vagueness.
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10-13-2009, 05:41 PM
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#34
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Master Electrician
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eldon Missouri
Posts: 890
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This will change in 2011 anyway
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10-15-2009, 07:19 PM
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#35
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: WA
Posts: 74
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Seems the intent of the code is to have a GFI withing 6' of any type of water basin that you might be washing your hands, tools or whatever in. Is fun to play NEC lawyer though!
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10-21-2009, 01:06 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 633
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GFIs are so cheap these days , the rule should be if you can see any source of water install GFIs
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10-21-2009, 11:34 PM
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#37
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Mad Skills
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Sparky
... if you can see any source of water install GFIs
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My town is surrounded on three sides by water....I can see water from just about everywhere.
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10-23-2009, 08:23 AM
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#38
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 68
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Note that the definition says an "AREA" znd not a "room".
That's why it requires GFCI protection. in that case your toilet, tub and lavatory are in the same area.
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10-23-2009, 11:47 PM
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#39
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2
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While you're out buying that GFI receptacle, you'll need an exhaust fan too, unless there's a window by that toilet.
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