Bonding a Window? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

wirenut1110 · 03-17-2009, 08:01 AM

I saw this on another forum and was wondering if anyone has ever heard of this. I was like

but I guess anything's possible.

Quote:

I have a question that seems to be a bit absurd but I guess it is a NEC rule, I'm putting in a 50 amp hot tub load center in and mounting it to the side of my house. I will be 5 feet away from the tub but 2 feet from a aluminum framed sliding window. I've been told that the window has to be bonded if it is with in 5 feet of the load center. I know that bonded means grounded but not being a electrician, I have no clue what this in tales. Any help would be greatly appreciated

electricista · 03-17-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wirenut1110

I saw this on another forum and was wondering if anyone has ever heard of this. I was like

but I guess anything's possible.

This comes from art. 680.26(B)(7). I happen to disagree with the interpretation that windows must be part of the pool bonding. IMO, this section is talking about wiring methods and equipment not any metal

Speedy Petey · 03-17-2009, 08:43 AM

I saw that. The requirement is 5' from the TUB, not from electrical equipment related to the tub.

And NO, bonding is NOT grounding.

wirenut1110 · 03-17-2009, 08:44 AM

He's saying it's 5' away from the tub so, I don't see how that applies according to exception 2 of '08.

wirenut1110 · 03-17-2009, 09:00 AM

I'm sitting here wondering how you would go about doing it without damaging the window. Grind the paint off and drill through the window pane, nut a bolt a lug with a #8 since you can't use a self tapper? Sorry, just seems stupid to me. What if the house has aluminum siding, would you have to put a jumper for each section of siding.

Also, would have to put a jumper from the window pane to the frame if one side is fixed?

Speedy Petey · 03-17-2009, 09:12 AM

If the tub were that close to the house then yes, you would have to bond the window, siding, and whatever else is metal within 5'.

electricista · 03-17-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

If the tub were that close to the house then yes, you would have to bond the window, siding, and whatever else is metal within 5'.

I understand that many people have this opinion but I just don't see it in this section. If all metal parts must be bonded that are within 5' of the tub then would you have to bond every nail in the siding?

My point is the article is talking about metal wiring methods and equipment. That's the heading, so how does a window or door frame fit in here.

It is possible that that interpretation was the intent of the code panel but I have no evidence of that and the words don't appear to show it.

I guess it would smart to err on the safe side and bond it.

Speedy Petey · 03-17-2009, 04:57 PM

Well, it is pretty clear as to the intent of what is required to be bonded.

Here is the code section and NEC Handbook commentary on this:

II. Permanently Installed Pools

680.26 Equipotential Bonding.

(A) Performance. The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area.

(B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes.

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.

Handbook Commentary:

The metal parts required to be bonded per 680.26(B) include all metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the water-circulating system of the pool, all metal parts of the pool structure, and all fixed metal parts, which include conduit and piping, metal door frames, and metal window frames, within 5 ft of the inside walls of the pool and not separated by a permanent barrier. Other examples of fixed metal parts covered by this requirement include metal fences and metal awnings. The bonding of these parts can be accomplished by one or more of the following methods using a solid 8 AWG or larger, insulated, covered, or bare copper conductor. See Exhibit 680.13. Brass or other corrosion-resistant metal conduit can also be used as a bonding conductor for connecting metal parts together.
• Connecting the parts directly to each other in series or parallel configurations
• Connecting the parts to the unencapsulated structural metal forming the shell of a conductive pool or connecting the parts to a copper conductor grid system used around the contour of a conductive pool shell
• Connecting the parts together using the pool shell constructed of bolted or welded steel as a common connection point. See Exhibit 680.13
• Connecting the parts to the perimeter bonding grid consisting of either structural reinforcing steel (re-bar or welded wire mesh) or a solid 8 AWG bare copper conductor encircling the perimeter of the pool

electricista · 03-17-2009, 05:08 PM

I know what the handbook says but that is just one man's interpretation. Look at the heading. The heading is metal wiring methods and equipment. Now look at the first sentence.

Quote:

Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.

All fixed metal parts of wiring methods and equipment not just any fixed metal parts. How do you explain not bonding the siding nails. Are they not a fixed metal part?

I am only trying to point out that this section is not really clear at all. If they want all fixed metal parts then the heading of that part should be changed.

jrannis · 03-17-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wirenut1110

I'm sitting here wondering how you would go about doing it without damaging the window. Grind the paint off and drill through the window pane, nut a bolt a lug with a #8 since you can't use a self tapper? Sorry, just seems stupid to me. What if the house has aluminum siding, would you have to put a jumper for each section of siding.

Also, would have to put a jumper from the window pane to the frame if one side is fixed?

Its done here all of the time. Ill find a good example and post a pic.

Speedy Petey · 03-17-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricista

I am only trying to point out that this section is not really clear at all.

Clear? If you want clear you'll need to find another profession with a different code book.

I think that they left out the sentence that they included in (5):

"Isolated parts that are not over 100 mm (4 in.) in any dimension and do not penetrate into the pool structure more than 25 mm (1 in.) shall not require bonding."

wirenut1110 · 03-17-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

And NO, bonding is NOT grounding.

It's funny you mention this. I just got an "invitation" in the mail today from "the electrical guru" for a seminar on grounding vs. bonding.

RIVETER · 10-29-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricista

This comes from art. 680.26(B)(7). I happen to disagree with the interpretation that windows must be part of the pool bonding. IMO, this section is talking about wiring methods and equipment not any metal

I don't know the answer to this , so I am just asking. What if the window in question was aluminum and attached to the studs of a metal framed house?

rewire · 10-29-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wirenut1110

I'm sitting here wondering how you would go about doing it without damaging the window. Grind the paint off and drill through the window pane, nut a bolt a lug with a #8 since you can't use a self tapper? Sorry, just seems stupid to me. What if the house has aluminum siding, would you have to put a jumper for each section of siding.

Also, would have to put a jumper from the window pane to the frame if one side is fixed?

use a thread forming machine screw that will engage at least two threads

RIVETER · 10-29-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wirenut1110

I'm sitting here wondering how you would go about doing it without damaging the window. Grind the paint off and drill through the window pane, nut a bolt a lug with a #8 since you can't use a self tapper? Sorry, just seems stupid to me. What if the house has aluminum siding, would you have to put a jumper for each section of siding.

Also, would have to put a jumper from the window pane to the frame if one side is fixed?

It is interesting that you mentioned something that I have not thought of in a while. Years ago I was rewiring an older home and installing a new furnace/- a/c system.
the entire metal siding was being energized intermittently(the whole house was an electrode).I first noticed popping/cracking sounds at the side of the house. I walked along the side and looked up at the service drop. The siding people had cut a ragged hole in the metal around the drip loop and when the wind blew right it touched the siding. I placed a meter to the siding and stuck the other end directly into the dirt and off, and on, I was getting voltage above 50 volts. It scared me...it'll probably happen again somewhere.