Can't get ground rod driven flush. - Page 2 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

TheElectricalGuru · 02-01-2007, 10:28 PM

lol...he can jump on me...I dont care and I do a little more than a little electrical on the side..lol

I also educate electricians around the State of VA.....feel FREE to jump on me and get into a debate with me...I dont mind.

RadioPet on Mike Holts site......rarly post...

Joe Momma · 02-02-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

Not sure who you think it is, but I'm famaliar with Paul. He's okay. Don't jump on him. He knows his stuff, in general.

Right on

It seems I've become the pit bull just dying to get out of the cage.
I'll have to work on that, thanks everyone for the proverbial 'smack upside the head' from time to time.

Pierre Belarge · 02-03-2007, 07:51 AM

Like others here, I have issues with inspectors who demand certain items without really understanding the topic at hand.
I am an inspector, so I think I can speak about this, remember it is just my opinion

Ground rods are usually SUPPLEMENTAL. They are also in a lot of cases when used as supplemental pretty much useless. The NEC spends a ton of ink and paper on this part of the code (Part III of Art 250). I work with the code and I am a believer in the code and processes, sometimes I just wonder how the process evolved.

When I inspect a service, the first thing I look for in the grounding process is the water, steel or concrete encasement. If there are groundrods, then I look for them. My pet peeve with ground rods is the burial of them. I do not want to see them exposed at all. I mostly look for the conductor as it leave the building and hope to see the rods completely buried. If they are 8 feet long and exposed, there are 2 violations there.

MDShunk · 02-03-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Belarge

If they are 8 feet long and exposed, there are 2 violations there.

Is there a good way for an inspector to know, visually, that the tip of a rod he's looking at is an 8 or 10 footer? I've always wondered. I know that one author wrote to look for the "UL" stamped into the end of a rod to know whether it was cut off or not. I buy UL marked rods, but the UL mark is on the wrapper for the bundle of rods, and is not on each rod, so that method is out the window.

Glad to have your participation, Pierre

Joe Momma · 02-03-2007, 07:04 PM

What gives around here, it seems my post was deleted.

Is this not called "Electrician Talk"? meaning one part electrical content and the other part talk.

Didn't even get to see a reason.........

Perhaps there's just not enough posts yet to keep the moderators too busy?

(oh and I'm copying this one, just so I can read back when I can't find it, at least then I'll have some clue of what the 'higher-ups' don't like)

It seems Guru was also offended by strict policies here, funny that my delted post was to him and we're very much alike.

TheElectricalGuru · 02-04-2007, 02:46 AM

Seems that joking is not allowed or something......anyway no worries I have nothing I need to post here but that probably will be deleted also.

Pierre Belarge · 02-04-2007, 07:27 AM

Hello Marc, and thanks.

I am not really too interested if the rod is really 8 ft long. I just do not want it protruding above grade. There was a young child who fell on one years ago and is now living on life support and will till she passes away.
Remember the rods perform mostly no real purpose. How many houses/buildings are in service now that do not have rods? More than we can count. Lets not forget that the Utility company also has their ground as well.

MDShunk · 02-04-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Belarge

I am not really too interested if the rod is really 8 ft long. I just do not want it protruding above grade. .

That's my goal, as well. Even in locations where the grade is being brought up later, and I could let my rod stick up a bit, I try not to. It's just a trip hazard for the bricklayers or the sidewallers and such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Belarge

There was a young child who fell on one years ago and is now living on life support and will till she passes away.

Wow. What were the circumstances of that accident? Tripped over the rod, and clobbered her head?

It's accidents that involve kids that hit home the most for me.

Joe Momma · 02-05-2007, 09:02 PM

I can't wait to see groundrods disappear.
It seems they're also a problem for the guys pounding them too. Having to stand up high on ladder that's set on uneven soil then having to throw their weight around so much to drive the rod. It seems guys have been falling down and getting hurt.
For that reason a company came to our shop recently, telling us to cut the rods and use one of their made couplings to join the two halves just so we don't have to climb the wobbly ladder anymore.

JohnJ0906 · 02-05-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

For that reason a company came to our shop recently, telling us to cut the rods and use one of their made couplings to join the two halves just so we don't have to climb the wobbly ladder anymore.

Say what? Is this a listed product?

TheElectricalGuru · 02-06-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

I can't wait to see groundrods disappear.
It seems they're also a problem for the guys pounding them too. Having to stand up high on ladder that's set on uneven soil then having to throw their weight around so much to drive the rod. It seems guys have been falling down and getting hurt.
For that reason a company came to our shop recently, telling us to cut the rods and use one of their made couplings to join the two halves just so we don't have to climb the wobbly ladder anymore.

Thank GOD for large BOSCH hammer drills...lol..., We have not had to use a sledge hammer in quite a while thanks to them, but I can see my helper now missing his chance to GET EVEN....

I agree Joe, as the NEC starts to mandate all GE available be done and more UFERS take over the less the GR will be needed, but it is always nice to have that solution sitting their available.

frank · 02-06-2007, 05:30 PM

Interesting topic. Here on the other side of the pond in England we use 4' grounding rods. A single rod is acceptable under any conditions providing that the Earth (ground) path Impedance is low enough to opperate a GFI within 30 milli seconds at max 30 milli amps. Electrode resistance must not be more than 200 ohms also. Otherwise use multiple series rods.

How does this compare to the USA. A couple of years ago I watched an electrician working on the downstream switchgear on a MA beach property. Activation of current devices in such sandy conditions crossed my mind.

mmmmmmmmmm! Would be nice to know

Frank England UK

MDShunk · 02-06-2007, 06:15 PM

Frank, here in the US, the rule is 25 ohms or less. Most inspectors will permit you to just drive two 8 foot ground rods, at least 6 feet apart, without having to prove your 25 ohms. If you only want to drive one rod, many inspectors want you to prove 25 ohms. For that reason, we just drive two and call it done.

JohnJ0906 · 02-06-2007, 06:19 PM

Frank, welcome to the forum!
I don't know how the UK is , but the NEC (National Electric Code) does not allow earth as the ground-fault current path, therefor the ground rod has nothing to do with the opperation of a GFCI, circuit breaker, fuse, etc
I have to admit, 4' ground rods sound a LOT easier to drive than a 8 footer!

Joe Momma · 02-06-2007, 06:25 PM

Over there, they probably only have 4 feet before running into the next ancient buried city.

frank · 02-08-2007, 02:32 PM

Hi John

Interesting! If I understand you correctly, your ground return path is not relied upon by an electrode alone. Seems to be the same here except with the exception I mentioned.

Usually the earth path is bonded to the neutral at the consumers input. Under these conditions though special bonding arrangements are undertaken to protect aginst problems should the neutral become open circuit. We have a further system also whereby the Supply Company provide a ground via the incoming armoured cable. This is then taken back to the main Star point of the supply distribution and grounded to 'earth' and also bonded to neutral. The use of the Rod system I mentioned is allowed where the GFIC device is common to all circuits and mounted on the bus bar rail as a Mains Disconnector. Usefull if you live by the sea or as your pal says, you happen to have your house built upon some ancient architecture,

Frank. Doncaster England UK.

Joe Momma · 02-08-2007, 06:43 PM

Say Frank, do you have any pictures of how things are done in the UK that you could post?

frank · 02-10-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

Say Frank, do you have any pictures of how things are done in the UK that you could post?

Of course. Give me until Thursday-ish. I should get some good photographs of the different input types for you.

Frank.

Joe Momma · 02-11-2007, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank

Of course. Give me until Thursday-ish. I should get some good photographs of the different input types for you.

Frank.

Thanks a lot buddy

That would be awesome

frank · 02-17-2007, 04:58 PM

OK Joe.

Got the pictures. Now I have to figure out how to download them from my photobucket file.

Working on it.

Frank England UK