Determining Construction Type... - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > NEC Code Forum


Like Tree18Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2017, 08:50 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Barjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 816
Rewards Points: 154
Default Determining Construction Type...

.....as it pertains to NM usage.

We are bidding on a 4 story, 4 unit town home build for one of our biggest clients.

I am told 1st floor exterior walls and interior walls separating the units will be cinder block.

2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors exterior and interior walls are wood framed.

This doesn't seem to fit construction types III, IV, and V in Annex E, so I'm thinking NM would not be allowed.

In general, we don't use NM in any dwelling units over 3 stories, but we've been asked to verify this and I'm coming up empty.

Any thoughts?
__________________
I can't even get a Majewski like......
Barjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-08-2017, 08:56 AM   #2
animal lover /rat bastard
 
wildleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: somewhere in FL
Posts: 12,424
Rewards Points: 582
Default

ask the GC. on a good set of plans that info is on the info page early in the A set, sometimes on the S set, which you may not have received if you are just bidding the e set. It makes a difference if the structure is on the fence, and best practice is just to get the info from the horse, rather than guess. the older versions of boca had that stuff in the first chapter, I don't know where it is in the IBC, (somewhat more detailed than what is in the nec).

sounds like mixed use. what version of nec are you guys on?
Barjack likes this.
__________________
this message was sent from a dental floss farm using ZappaTalk and a pair of zirconium encrusted tweasers

Last edited by wildleg; 01-08-2017 at 08:59 AM.
wildleg is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wildleg For This Useful Post:
Barjack (01-08-2017)
Old 01-08-2017, 09:23 AM   #3
Deplorable-Electrician
 
MechanicalDVR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: God's Country of Virginia
Posts: 31,217
Rewards Points: 2,068
Default

Contacting the GC is the best way to go as Wildleg suggested, save a wrong turn and reversal.
Barjack likes this.
__________________
I have never claimed to be a nice guy!

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" mlk
MechanicalDVR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MechanicalDVR For This Useful Post:
Barjack (01-08-2017)
Old 01-08-2017, 09:34 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Barjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 816
Rewards Points: 154
Default

We were asked for a ballpark price based on a basic set of prints, based on criteria we normally use for their jobs (usually single family dwelling new construction or addition).

Our ballpark price was for MC/EMT due to the info they gave us, and is substantially more than for NM.

They were asking us to verify that this wiring method would be required for this structure.

From what I'm reading it sounds like its on them to determine structure type, not us.

Thanks for the info.
__________________
I can't even get a Majewski like......
Barjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 09:36 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Barjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 816
Rewards Points: 154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildleg View Post
ask the GC. on a good set of plans.....
You're funny. I don't think I've ever seen a good set of plans.

Quote:
what version of nec are you guys on?
Florida Building Code has adopted the 2011 NEC, with technical amendments in various municipalities.

Isn't that what you're on?
MechanicalDVR likes this.
__________________
I can't even get a Majewski like......
Barjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 10:37 AM   #6
Safety Pin Member
 
PlugsAndLights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 2,249
Rewards Points: 2,876
Default

I'm not an expert on this subject in Ontario, much less Florida.
So, maybe you guys can school me: What would be the point
of MC (or other non-NMD conductors) in a wood structure
(plenums aside)?
As an aside, 7 or 8 years ago I worked on 4 story retirement
building with about 80 units. The contractor I worked for chose
to use the cheapest cables possible. Even ccts within each unit
would switch between bx and nmd depending on the wall/ceiling
structure. I'm not sure if the material price saved as much as
constantly switching back and forth between bx and nmd, as this
had a cost in terms of labour. Carrying around the extra rolls and
racking/re-racking was time consuming.
P&L
__________________
Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, aggression, and sadism.[1] Often grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate.
PlugsAndLights is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 10:38 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 1,523
Rewards Points: 1,278
Send a message via Skype™ to MikeFL
Default

It's determined by T500 in the FBC and from looking at that, it appears you are ok. But a strong word of caution, run this by your local plans examiner/ inspector.

Towhomes are Group R-3 and since you're 4 stories, you're going to be fully sprinkled. So even if of Type V construction, sec. 504.2 gives you that extra story to get to 4 stories.

But don't do what I say. Run it by the city or county before you pull any NM in that building.
Barjack and splatz like this.
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS LightLock Astronomical Timers
www.GPSLightLock.com
(239) 848-6675
MikeFL is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MikeFL For This Useful Post:
Barjack (01-08-2017)
Old 01-08-2017, 10:46 AM   #8
still in business
 
sbrn33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle america
Posts: 8,769
Rewards Points: 3,490
Default

It would be MC in my area. Don't really know why, I thought the nec rule on romex gave it a 3 story rule. I am home now but when I go in I will see if I can find it.
__________________
but this is the economically depressed South and we're just a bunch of barefooted cousin humpers.
sbrn33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 11:55 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
drewsserviceco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Philly suburbs
Posts: 837
Rewards Points: 2
Default

Not really adding a whole lot of technical info, but I remember something along the lines of 5 stories with sprinklers. The IBC/IRC also has regulations regarding occupant capacity that becomes a factor as well.
drewsserviceco is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2017, 08:52 PM   #10
animal lover /rat bastard
 
wildleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: somewhere in FL
Posts: 12,424
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barjack View Post
You're funny. I don't think I've ever seen a good set of plans.



Florida Building Code has adopted the 2011 NEC, with technical amendments in various municipalities.

Isn't that what you're on?
I just retired. All I'm on is a rocker.
(not licensed in FL)
Barjack likes this.
__________________
this message was sent from a dental floss farm using ZappaTalk and a pair of zirconium encrusted tweasers
wildleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 04:56 AM   #11
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 3,255
Rewards Points: 3,010
Default

Determining the construction type is beyond me. I don't feel bad because getting a straight answer about it out of engineers architects and inspectors shows it might be beyond them too.

I was a sub on a job years ago where someone lost their shirt running NM in a stick framed building. I think they got screwed, their assessment of the construction type was correct and NM was compliant. I guess they could have fought it, held up the job, etc., but they just ate it - luckily the customer kicked in half to keep the job on schedule.

This is one of those things if the job is bigger than you can afford to gamble, you want to CYA in your proposal, defer to the engineer or architect regarding the construction type.
Barjack and telsa like this.
__________________
The Customer is Always Right! - @Hackwork
splatz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to splatz For This Useful Post:
Barjack (01-09-2017)
Old 01-09-2017, 07:14 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 1,523
Rewards Points: 1,278
Send a message via Skype™ to MikeFL
Default

The NEC allows NM based on what construction type is allowed, not what's on the plans or what the building is made out of, which is weird but it is what it is.
Barjack and telsa like this.
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS LightLock Astronomical Timers
www.GPSLightLock.com
(239) 848-6675
MikeFL is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 05:38 PM   #13
animal lover /rat bastard
 
wildleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: somewhere in FL
Posts: 12,424
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFL View Post
The NEC allows NM based on what construction type is allowed, not what's on the plans or what the building is made out of, which is weird but it is what it is.
while I agree that your statement is technically correct, I would bet dollars to donuts that there isn't one ahj on this planet that would allow the nm in a building that does not meet that section of the code if you were to remove the word "permitted" in the section to which you refer, or would argue that the word meant something else.

Quote:
334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type
NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following,
except as prohibited in 334.12:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or
detached garages, and their storage buildings.
(2) Multi-family dwellings permitted to be of Types Ill, IV,
and V construction.
(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction. Cables shall be concealed within walls,
floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material
that has at least a IS-minute finish rating as identified
in listings of fire-rated assemblies.
Informational Note No. 1: of building construction
and occupancy classifications are defined in NFPA 220-
2012, Standard on Types (~l Building Construction, or the
applicable building code, or both.
Informational Note No.2: See lnformative Annex E for
determination of building types [NFPA 220, Table 3-11.
(4) Cable trays in structures permitted to be Types Ill, IV,
or V where the cables are identified for the use.
Informational Note: See 310.1S(A)(3) for temperature
limitation of conductors.
(5) Types I and II construction where installed within
raceways permitted to be installed in Types I and II
construction.
(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows
(2014 - I don't have the 2011 on this computer)
splatz likes this.
__________________
this message was sent from a dental floss farm using ZappaTalk and a pair of zirconium encrusted tweasers
wildleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2017, 11:21 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Byte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 465
Rewards Points: 930
Default

The worst that could happen is that the building burns down and people die; all because some electrician chooses to do it cheaper in order to make more profit. Do it safely and sleep at night.
Byte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 02:22 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 8,746
Rewards Points: 15,768
Default

The KEY thing is not the GC -- it's the AHJ's opinion.

Have these plans been submitted for the okay ?
splatz likes this.
telsa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 06:57 AM   #16
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 3,255
Rewards Points: 3,010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildleg View Post
while I agree that your statement is technically correct, I would bet dollars to donuts that there isn't one ahj on this planet that would allow the nm in a building that does not meet that section of the code if you were to remove the word "permitted" in the section to which you refer, or would argue that the word meant something else.
That's the reality, it isn't enough to be right, it has to be right AND something the AHJ won't hold you up over. When there's shades of gray you can't gamble that everyone will quickly agree with your determination and let you do the job as bid.
telsa likes this.
__________________
The Customer is Always Right! - @Hackwork
splatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 07:16 AM   #17
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 3,255
Rewards Points: 3,010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte View Post
The worst that could happen is that the building burns down and people die; all because some electrician chooses to do it cheaper in order to make more profit. Do it safely and sleep at night.
Of course you're right, when in doubt err towards safety. If I really felt this building somehow fell in a loophole or weak point in the code, and NM was too hazardous, I'd explain my concern to the customer and ask if they wanted to upgrade. If they don't leave it to someone else.

But what, should everyone just do everything in rigid end to end? That would be safer.

Truth is, deciding where NM becomes unsafe isn't a real cut and dried thing, and the construction types aren't real cut and dried to me either. So I figure if you defer to the engineers, architects, and inspectors you sleep fine.
__________________
The Customer is Always Right! - @Hackwork
splatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 08:08 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
Byte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 465
Rewards Points: 930
Default

From the CEC:
12-504 Use of non-metallic-sheathed cable (see Appendix B)
Non-metallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted in or on buildings of combustible construction and in or on other types of construction where acceptable.
Acceptable — acceptable to the authority enforcing this Code.

So you need the safety code officer to sign off on it...or run conduit
Byte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 08:50 AM   #19
animal lover /rat bastard
 
wildleg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: somewhere in FL
Posts: 12,424
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte View Post
From the CEC:
12-504 Use of non-metallic-sheathed cable (see Appendix B)
Non-metallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted in or on buildings of combustible construction and in or on other types of construction where acceptable.
Acceptable acceptable to the authority enforcing this Code.

So you need the safety code officer to sign off on it...or run conduit
fortunately, the CEC does not generally apply in the OP's locale.
__________________
this message was sent from a dental floss farm using ZappaTalk and a pair of zirconium encrusted tweasers
wildleg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2017, 06:31 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
Barjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 816
Rewards Points: 154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte View Post
The worst that could happen is that the building burns down and people die; all because some electrician chooses to do it cheaper in order to make more profit. Do it safely and sleep at night.
Thanks for the useful post.

I had planned on not doing it safely until you chimed in.
B-Nabs and splatz like this.
__________________
I can't even get a Majewski like......
Barjack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How does Building Information Modeling (BIM) affect your construction business? Square D_Ishaan Square D by Schneider Electric 3 11-14-2016 12:29 PM
Where to look to become a 309A? (Ontario; ICI; Construction & Maintenance) Syntax Electrician Apprentice Forum 4 10-04-2016 06:40 AM
Solar Technology Mandatory For New Construction? Cricket General Electrical Discussion 10 06-13-2016 11:38 PM
Upgrading and outdoor screw-in fuse box to a circuit breaker type box Jimmi328 Residential Electrical Forum 2 03-26-2016 08:09 PM
Supporting service mast flush mout new construction so cal Dodge47 Residential Electrical Forum 6 02-24-2016 10:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com