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11-05-2009, 08:28 PM
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#101
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lake Ridge, Virginia
Posts: 2,193
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He's definitely a turd. Yes.
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11-05-2009, 08:29 PM
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#102
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B4T Scotchkote installer
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
Posts: 4,438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelersman
He's definitely a turd. Yes.
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__________________
314.27.. you must use "listed" connectors when bringing wires into a 6X6 PVC box. Use a water tight compression connector for the UF because a 1/2" hole in the bottom of the box will cause all kinds of problems if you post it on a Internet Forum 
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11-07-2009, 04:12 AM
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#103
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures
If you disagree with this, please provide code sections to back it up.
Enjoy your day!!  |
I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit
OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. I'll
provide as many code sections as you do.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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11-08-2009, 01:37 PM
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#104
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Inspector
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Great Police State of South Jersey
Posts: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit
OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. I'll
provide as many code sections as you do.
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You are incorrect.
Article 100 Definitions which states;
Branch Circuit, Individual.
A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.
The conductors from the fused/breakered disconnect to the AC unit are the Individual Branch-Circuit conductors. The fuse or breaker in the disconnect is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device and the breaker in the panel is the feeder protection.
If a non-fused/breakered disconnect is installed then the breaker in the panel is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.
Hope this clears things up for you.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
Kevin
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11-09-2009, 09:02 PM
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#105
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures
You are incorrect.
Article 100 Definitions which states;
Branch Circuit, Individual.
A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.
Feeder.
All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.
The conductors from the fused/breakered disconnect to the AC unit are the Individual Branch-Circuit conductors. The fuse or breaker in the disconnect is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device and the breaker in the panel is the feeder protection.
If a non-fused/breakered disconnect is installed then the breaker in the panel is the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.
Hope this clears things up for you.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
Kevin |
Article 210.2 shows you all the other articles that amend Article 210
"Branch Circuits".
Top of the list in Table 210.2 is Air Conditioning Equipment.
Article 440.6 , 440.31 , 440.32. Tell us that the nameplate on the equipment is used to determine the rating or ampacity of the Disc. Means,
the Branch Circuit Conductors, the Controller, the Branch Circuit SS/GF
Protection , and the Seperate Motor Overload Protection.
Article 440.52(A)(3) Protection Agianst Overload, (3) a fuse.
Example: MCA=20a MOP=35a fuse or hacr c.b.
35a c.b. , #14 thwn conductors , fused disconect w/25a fuses for o.l.
protection, #14 thwn conductors to equipment termination block.
EE spec like this every day of the week.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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11-10-2009, 03:43 PM
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#106
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Inspector
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Great Police State of South Jersey
Posts: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
Article 210.2 shows you all the other articles that amend Article 210
"Branch Circuits".
Top of the list in Table 210.2 is Air Conditioning Equipment.
Article 440.6 , 440.31 , 440.32. Tell us that the nameplate on the equipment is used to determine the rating or ampacity of the Disc. Means,
the Branch Circuit Conductors, the Controller, the Branch Circuit SS/GF
Protection , and the Seperate Motor Overload Protection.
Article 440.52(A)(3) Protection Agianst Overload, (3) a fuse.
Example: MCA=20a MOP=35a fuse or hacr c.b.
35a c.b. , #14 thwn conductors , fused disconect w/25a fuses for o.l.
protection, #14 thwn conductors to equipment termination block.
EE spec like this every day of the week.
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I agree with everything stated about branch circuits. The confusion here is where does the branch circuit begin. If a fused/breakered disconnect is installed then the branch circuit begins @ the disconnect and everything stated above is correct plus the requirements of 440.35. If a non-fused/breakered disconnect is installed, the conductors from the disconnect back to the panel are still feeders by definition and the requirements of Article 215 apply including 215.1 and 215.3.
In the example above #14 thwn can be ran from the panel to the fused/breakered disconnect and then to the AC unit. MOP in the disconnect can be 25A, however, the feeder protective device cannot be set higher then 310.16 which is 20A. This installation may lead to nuisance tripping at the feeder protective device. As the inspector I can't require conductors larger than #14 THWN, but I will not except a feeder OC device larger than 20A (which is what the #14 THWN is rated at).
I did find 440.52(A)(1) interesting though. Is it stating that the fuse or ITCB cannot be set higher then 125% even though the nameplate allows higher?
As for EE's, just because they spec it doesn't make it compliant.
Interesting discussion. It's shame there are no other comments.
Kevin
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11-10-2009, 04:42 PM
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#107
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child please.....
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hack City, USA aka New Orleans
Posts: 2,955
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bluh....
Last edited by NolaTigaBait; 11-10-2009 at 04:44 PM.
Reason: bluh...
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11-10-2009, 10:44 PM
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#108
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Kevin,
Just so we are on the same page, The fused disco. at the ac unit is not
part of any manafactures instrutions, right, same page.
The only good code back-up I have is, If you believe that these are feeders, and they feed a (code) structure outside, then a GES must be
installed at the disco.
Now,IMO. If the purpose of the fused disco is to protect the ac unit, then
the wires on the line side of the disco are branch circuit conductors.
If the purpose of the fused disco is to protect the wires on the load side
of the disco, then the supply conductors are feeders.
I don't agree that the fused disco is installed to protect the line side
conductors to the disco, and I don't agree that the addition of the disco
changes the line side conductors from branch circuit to feeders.
Pizza just showed up, later.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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11-11-2009, 09:11 PM
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#109
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Inspector
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Great Police State of South Jersey
Posts: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
I disagree, the fused disconnect at the unit is not the final branch circuit
OCPD, it is overload protection, no change in circuit wiring is needed. I'll
provide as many code sections as you do.
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What, no code sections? 
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11-11-2009, 09:45 PM
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#110
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures
What, no code sections? |
For post #108, Article 250.32(A)
I did not think that you would need this one !! 
I guess all the EC's in your area are driving ground rods for their AC disco.
feeders ?
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
Last edited by Benaround; 11-11-2009 at 09:48 PM.
Reason: add info
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11-16-2009, 04:58 PM
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#111
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Inspector
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Great Police State of South Jersey
Posts: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
For post #108, Article 250.32(A)
I did not think that you would need this one !!
I guess all the EC's in your area are driving ground rods for their AC disco.
feeders ? |
250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s)
or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied
by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding
electrode or grounding electrode system installed in
accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding
electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance
with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding
electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50
shall be installed.
Frank,
I think the key word here is building or structure. Neither of which apply here.
Kevin
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11-17-2009, 09:38 PM
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#112
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Kevin,
NEC Definition of Structure:
"That which is built or constructed"
Making a concrete pad, supplying pipes and electrical power is that which
is built and constructed. There is no doubt that an outdoor air conditioner
compressor set-up is a 'structure'. A parking lot pole light is a structure,
the NEC even deleted the requirement for a disconnect on these. The NEC
says what it says' seperate structures supplied by feeders are required
to have a GES'.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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11-18-2009, 04:57 AM
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#113
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lake Ridge, Virginia
Posts: 2,193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
Kevin,
NEC Definition of Structure:
"That which is built or constructed"
Making a concrete pad, supplying pipes and electrical power is that which
is built and constructed. There is no doubt that an outdoor air conditioner
compressor set-up is a 'structure'. A parking lot pole light is a structure,
the NEC even deleted the requirement for a disconnect on these. The NEC
says what it says' seperate structures supplied by feeders are required
to have a GES'.
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Wow. You've really lost your marbles on that one if you think that an A/C is a seperate structure. Let's not confuse this already confusing topic anymore than it needs to be.
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11-18-2009, 06:47 PM
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#114
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Stiff Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sebring, FL
Posts: 129
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Hey now, you keep your logic and common sense to yourself.
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11-18-2009, 06:54 PM
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#115
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lake Ridge, Virginia
Posts: 2,193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idontknow
Hey now, you keep your logic and common sense to yourself.
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Yes, I'm sorry. I'll try to remember not to share any commonsense with any others.
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11-18-2009, 08:34 PM
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#116
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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This is not a 'logic or common sense' Forum, it is a NEC Forum, and as We
are required to use NEC defined words when used.
Structure is a NEC defined word: 'That which is built or constucted'.
You can not tell me that an outdoor AC compressor unit was not built or
constructed. Three different trades, concrete, hvac, and electrical, were
required to install this, these are construction trades, it is a structure.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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11-19-2009, 10:02 PM
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#117
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Stiff Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sebring, FL
Posts: 129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benaround
This is not a 'logic or common sense' Forum, it is a NEC Forum, and as We
are required to use NEC defined words when used.
Structure is a NEC defined word: 'That which is built or constucted'.
You can not tell me that an outdoor AC compressor unit was not built or
constructed. Three different trades, concrete, hvac, and electrical, were
required to install this, these are construction trades, it is a structure.
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So a post light is a separate structure as well then?
Edit: Also, if you replace the concrete pad with a prefored plastic or concrete pad, have the electricians only mount the disconnect and wire their end, then a condenser could be installed by just an hvac contractor
Last edited by idontknow; 11-19-2009 at 10:06 PM.
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11-19-2009, 11:02 PM
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#118
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Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idontknow
So a post light is a separate structure as well then?
Edit: Also, if you replace the concrete pad with a prefored plastic or concrete pad, have the electricians only mount the disconnect and wire their end, then a condenser could be installed by just an hvac contractor
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Yes, a post light is a seperate structure, it is not required to have a GES
because it is on a single branch circuit.
It does not matter 'who' installs 'what' the AC unit has been built or constructed.
The AC unit, like the post light, does not require a GES if it is on a single
branch circuit, But, if you are in the camp that feels by useing a fused
disconnect at the unit that it is being supplied by 'feeders', than you
must also alude to the fact that a GES is required at the disconnect.
__________________
Frank, Arizona,USA
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts
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