jamesvcampbell

For kitchens other than dwelling units (article 210.8 (B)) the requirements for gfci protection states that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles within the kitchen area shall be gfci protected. Does anyone see an exception for receptacles that service appliances in the kitchen area?

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Jame V. Campbell
the best lessons will always cost the most

480sparky

It is not all the receps in a kitchen. Only those that serve the countertop are required to be GFI protected. 210.8(A)(6).

Disposals, refrigerators, dishwashers, gas ranges, built-in microwaves, etc. are not included.

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All responses based on the 2008 National Rat Code.

Chris Kennedy

You read to fast. Look at the letters in the middle.

OP said other than dwelling units.

I see no exception.

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gilbequick

I don't have a code book in front of me for a reference, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.

gilbequick

I don't have a code book in front of me, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.

480sparky

My bad!

If they are, they are mis-interpreting 210.8(A)(7). That only includes laundry, wet bar & utility sinks, not the kitchen sink. Either that, or they are still stuck on the pre-1996 six-foot rule for kitchen sinks. And even if that's the case, receps for specific appliances were considered exempt.

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All responses based on the 2008 National Rat Code.

Speedy Petey

Nope! Not even for refridgerators. This is a foolish lawyer and insurance driven code change IMO. Keep the suits happy.





What 480 said!
I'd ask for a code reference next time they demand this of you.

kkelter

The code overlaps though, the sink is on the kitchen counter-top so the receptacle still has to be GFI protected

Speedy Petey

What Gil is saying is that they enforce the GFI rule even if the receptacle is not serving the counter top.

480sparky

Interesting.

My question to those inspectors would be: "So if the kitchen sink wall is backed up to, say, a bedroom, the bedroom receps would need to be GFId as well?"

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All responses based on the 2008 National Rat Code.

Bkessler

Just because an inspector insists on something does not make it true.

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LawnGuyLandSparky

I agree. The gas range, dishwasher, insta-hot / disposal, refrig, microwave (permanently installed) doesn't need to be GFCI protected. I don't care if they're IN the sink.

gilbequick

I've had to do all of that to keep the inspectors happy around here. In multiple counties too, not just one.

Speedy Petey

Gil, where are you located?

I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?

JohnJ0906

Are these ACTUAL AMENDMENTS to the jurisdictions you work in? In other words, the NEC has to be adopted by the jurisdiction - state legislature, city/county council, etc. Often, there are changes, i.e.: amendments that are included. These are now part of the NEC for that jurisdiction.

For instance, Baltimore county formally amended the NEC to prohibit AL wires smaller than #4. They also have an official color code.

Are the jurisdictions enforcing something like this, or just making stuff up and pretending it's the code?

http://resources.co.ba.md.us/Documen...lec_amends.pdf

http://resources.co.ba.md.us/Documen...color_code.pdf

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John from Baltimore
"One day at a Time"
All responses based on the '08 NEC
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gilbequick

To tell you the truth, I don't know 100% that they are local amendments. I do know that this took effect when the 2005 code took effect, I took 2 code classes and both taught this 6ft rule. Others in the company at which I work also took a class by a different inspector and was also taught this. Sooooooooo I can only assume that is a local amendment.

Do I agree with it? Nope. Have I been failed for it? Yup, more than once. I'm not kidding when I say that I've had an inspector unscrew a fastened appliance in a kitchen and check the outlet. The appliance was a custom built in refridgerator. It was 5'-10'' from the edge of the sink at a downstairs bar (looked like a mini kitchen but had no cooking appliances), I remember because I thought to myself "there's no way he's going to pull out that fridge and measure". Yeah right!

How the inspectors here do it is 6ft from a sink, no matter what. Even if the outlet is down and around inside a cabinet, doesn't matter.

Almost forgot, I live in Charlotte, NC. The surrounding counties also enforce this "6ft rule"".

Not really sure what you mean by this, but my job is to wire and install by code.

Like I said, I don't agree with it all, but it is uniformly enforced around here so I go with it.

GREGNC

gil i live about 60 miles north of ya in the foothills howdy neighbor! the 6' rule must be an amendment in your county they dont enforce it around here

Speedy Petey

Well Gil if as in your above example it was a wet bar sink your inspector is correct. If it is a kitchen sink I'd want to see it in writing.

My point was that it is not the inspector's job to make up codes he thinks should be enforced. It is his job to enforce existing codes.
I hear all the time about AHJs requesting, no, demanding, things that are NOT code. Yet no one bats an eye. Everyone just wants to appease the inspector. That is NOT how it is supposed to work.

Roger123

Well, unfortunately Petey it is how it usually works!

A couple of times I did more then just bat an eye. I demanded to see their made up rules that were not in the NEC. The inspectors just said, "it's not how we do things here and I'm not signing off on the permit." Every time I went back to the GC and was told the same thing, "just do it their way so this job can be completed." Probably everyone here has been in the same situation also.

Bkessler

Amen speedy, I challange inspectors every oppertunity I get. Most inspectors in california have no field experience in the trade thieir inspecting. They just took a class. If you have documentaiton that you are correct go to the building department. AND RAISE HELLL.

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