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Kitchen requirements

14K views 56 replies 29 participants last post by  Magnettica 
#1 ·
For kitchens other than dwelling units (article 210.8 (B)) the requirements for gfci protection states that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles within the kitchen area shall be gfci protected. Does anyone see an exception for receptacles that service appliances in the kitchen area?
 
#2 ·
It is not all the receps in a kitchen. Only those that serve the countertop are required to be GFI protected. 210.8(A)(6).

Disposals, refrigerators, dishwashers, gas ranges, built-in microwaves, etc. are not included.
 
#4 ·
I don't have a code book in front of me for a reference, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.
 
#5 ·
I don't have a code book in front of me, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not. Take your tape measure and going from the edge of any part the sink or water faucet if it reaches ANY receptacle within 6ft it needs to be gfci protected. Don't know about where you live but it's enforced here in NC.
 
#7 ·
Nope! Not even for refridgerators. This is a foolish lawyer and insurance driven code change IMO. Keep the suits happy.





gilbequick said:
I don't have a code book in front of me for a reference, but also in a dwelling unit every receptacle within 6ft of a sink has to be gfci protected...no matter if its in a cabinet or not.
What 480 said!
I'd ask for a code reference next time they demand this of you.
 
#12 ·
I agree. The gas range, dishwasher, insta-hot / disposal, refrig, microwave (permanently installed) doesn't need to be GFCI protected. I don't care if they're IN the sink.
 
#48 ·
Gil, where are you located?

I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?
LoL...I prefer them to make me HAPPY...knowing that what I tell them to do IS code.....most " QUALITY" inspectors will supply code references on all tickets and be able to explain WHY they are wanting something done.
 
#16 ·
To tell you the truth, I don't know 100% that they are local amendments. I do know that this took effect when the 2005 code took effect, I took 2 code classes and both taught this 6ft rule. Others in the company at which I work also took a class by a different inspector and was also taught this. Sooooooooo I can only assume that is a local amendment.

Do I agree with it? Nope. Have I been failed for it? Yup, more than once. I'm not kidding when I say that I've had an inspector unscrew a fastened appliance in a kitchen and check the outlet. The appliance was a custom built in refridgerator. It was 5'-10'' from the edge of the sink at a downstairs bar (looked like a mini kitchen but had no cooking appliances), I remember because I thought to myself "there's no way he's going to pull out that fridge and measure". Yeah right!

How the inspectors here do it is 6ft from a sink, no matter what. Even if the outlet is down and around inside a cabinet, doesn't matter.

Almost forgot, I live in Charlotte, NC. The surrounding counties also enforce this "6ft rule"".

I am not being a jerk about this, but is your job to wire a job to code or to your own preference above code, or is it to make inspectors happy?
Not really sure what you mean by this, but my job is to wire and install by code.

Like I said, I don't agree with it all, but it is uniformly enforced around here so I go with it.
 
#17 ·
To tell you the truth, I don't know 100% that they are local amendments. I do know that this took effect when the 2005 code took effect, I took 2 code classes and both taught this 6ft rule. Others in the company at which I work also took a class by a different inspector and was also taught this. Sooooooooo I can only assume that is a local amendment.

Do I agree with it? Nope. Have I been failed for it? Yup, more than once. I'm not kidding when I say that I've had an inspector unscrew a fastened appliance in a kitchen and check the outlet. The appliance was a custom built in refridgerator. It was 5'-10'' from the edge of the sink at a downstairs bar (looked like a mini kitchen but had no cooking appliances), I remember because I thought to myself "there's no way he's going to pull out that fridge and measure". Yeah right!

How the inspectors here do it is 6ft from a sink, no matter what. Even if the outlet is down and around inside a cabinet, doesn't matter.

Almost forgot, I live in Charlotte, NC. The surrounding counties also enforce this "6ft rule"".

Not really sure what you mean by this, but my job is to wire and install by code.

Like I said, I don't agree with it all, but it is uniformly enforced around here so I go with it.
gil i live about 60 miles north of ya in the foothills howdy neighbor! the 6' rule must be an amendment in your county they dont enforce it around here
 
#18 ·
Well Gil if as in your above example it was a wet bar sink your inspector is correct. If it is a kitchen sink I'd want to see it in writing.

My point was that it is not the inspector's job to make up codes he thinks should be enforced. It is his job to enforce existing codes.
I hear all the time about AHJs requesting, no, demanding, things that are NOT code. Yet no one bats an eye. Everyone just wants to appease the inspector. That is NOT how it is supposed to work.
 
#19 ·
I hear all the time about AHJs requesting, no, demanding, things that are NOT code. Yet no one bats an eye. Everyone just wants to appease the inspector. That is NOT how it is supposed to work.
Well, unfortunately Petey it is how it usually works!

A couple of times I did more then just bat an eye. I demanded to see their made up rules that were not in the NEC. The inspectors just said, "it's not how we do things here and I'm not signing off on the permit." Every time I went back to the GC and was told the same thing, "just do it their way so this job can be completed." Probably everyone here has been in the same situation also.
 
#20 ·
Amen speedy, I challange inspectors every oppertunity I get. Most inspectors in california have no field experience in the trade thieir inspecting. They just took a class. If you have documentaiton that you are correct go to the building department. AND RAISE HELLL.
 
#21 ·
I understand that Roger, but WHY does it have to be that way?
I do NOT accept the old "It's the way we do things" B-S.

They know no one will fight them for fear of the job being delayed. This is just plain wrong, and is probably criminal to certain slight extent.

I guess I am lucky that I can "ask" for a reference and they'll read it with me and explain their point. The inspectors I use aren't on power trips.
This may be because we use third party inspectors and we can use any of several different agencies. The field guys also usually have to answer to higher ups. And the higher ups are typically very cool and will talk with you.

I have to admit. There are some local municipal building inspectors around here who are not this easy to deal with. One is downright vindictive.
 
#22 ·
speedy petey said:
I have to admit. There are some local municipal building inspectors around here who are not this easy to deal with. One is downright vindictive.
That's all we have around here. Most ARE professional, and were electricians in the field before becoming inspectors, but not all. As you can see by the link, SOME actually have things in writing, but some jurisdictions don't want to make it easy.
I don't care (too much) what the requirements are, as long as it's official, in writing, enforced across-the-board, and we know about it in advance.
 
#24 ·
Let me ask you all something:

If you were driving through a city, and the speed limit was posted at 45MPH, and you were doing 45, say the city cop pulls you over.

He gives you a ticket for doing 45. You would say, "But the speed limit is 45, how can I be speeding?", right?

If the cop says, "Well, I say it's 35 today, so here's your ticket....have a nice day.", you would make a beeline to the police station, city hall, your court date, wherever you need to go, because no police officer has the legal power to change the written law.

Same legal principle applies to inspectors. They are inspectors, not expectors.
 
#26 ·
It is in the book

I am an inspector and if a EC questions my decision I encourage them all to aks me where it is in the NEC. If I cannot find it I am wrong. All inspectors get into their favorite things and sometimes try to enforce what they think the code should be not what it is. Good Luck
 
#30 ·
I am an electrician for many years now. I hold several licenses and I am now also working a bit as an inspector. (I passed all three tests for national certification) In New York State it can be pretty tough. If a residential job meets the 1999 NEC reuirements (this applies until 12/31/2007) then you have to approve the job. If it doesn't meet the 1999 NEC requirements then you have to know if it meets the NYS Residential code. The Residential code makes reference to the NEC, however, the Residential Code takes precedence. It doesn't make the inspectors job easy when the work was done sloppy or you have a beligerant Licensee trying to get you to just sign of the job and "ignore" a few little items. Sloppy work and poor behavior (both not requirements of any code) are reasons for me to take a lot closer look at the work. Yes, it is not part of being an inspector, but we are people, also. We are intrusted by the municipalities to attest that the jobs are to a minimum quality. I enjoy inspecting work. Many years ago when I first started hiring people I became an inspector of sorts. Now it is more of an official position. I am happy to be shown wrong. If I am questioned concerning a code issue I am happy to comply and show the person in writing. GCs and ECs with attitude problems (anyone else for that matter), just get me more pissed albeit I don't show it. I just "look a little bit closer" that's normally all it takes to find something not in line.
The jobs I do as an electrician, I make sure that they are 100% before going for an inspection. I want the inspector to be happy and I enjoy showing off quality work I am proud of. As an insepctor I guess I expect that of other ECs. I have run into sloppy work that is with-in code. I talk with the guys, try to impress upon them a bit, but if it meets code it has to pass. The extra time I put into these inspections is my personal committment to the industry. I don't make more money from spending an extra ten minutes with an electrician but I enjoy my time and normally the electrician also is happy.
My two bits inspecting Sullivan County to Rockland County, NY,
 
#31 ·
Kapakahi,

Sounds like you are a solid good inspector. Thanks for the input. Wish every inspector would emulate you.


GCs and ECs with attitude problems (anyone else for that matter), just get me more pissed albeit I don't show it. I just "look a little bit closer" that's normally all it takes to find something not in line.
except for this.
 
#34 · (Edited)
most inspectors in this area are real cool guys they will not bust your b**** unless you ask for it. i used to work for a guy that even if the job passed he would still find some way to piss the inspector off. i always kill with kindness and i have never had an issue with anyone in the 10 years in this field. i see most Of the inspectors more than once so when they come its HEY HOWS IT GOING HOWS BUISNESS ETC....... its more of a social thing 5 minuets looking at the job 15 minuets talking makes a stressful job go a little easy sometimes
 
#35 · (Edited)
For kitchens other than dwelling units (article 210.8 (B)) the requirements for gfci protection states that all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles within the kitchen area shall be gfci protected. Does anyone see an exception for receptacles that service appliances in the kitchen area?

210.8 (B) (2). GFCI in commercial/institutional kitchens.

NO exceptions. From the 2005 NEC.

What cycle are you on? thats the real answer.

edit: I see Alabama is on the 2005 NEC, no Ammendments I could see.
 
#36 ·
2005 handbood

jamesvcambell, on page 77 of 05 handbook (other than dweling units) the only exception that i see is a location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (corded microwave). otherwise it covers chuches, hotels, schools, dining halls w/kitchens, whether or not they (the outlets) serve countertops.

this was new in 02 and i don't have an '08.........we will begin with 05 in 08.
 
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