NEC 2008 Receptacles in Garages, Dwellings - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Joe71 · 10-29-2009, 08:05 PM

As I read the 2008 code:
1) Now "all" receptacles in a dwelling must be "tamper resistant".
2) This even applies to GFCI receptacles. (Isn't the GFCI a "tamper resistant" receptacle by definition?!)
3) An exception is the ceiling mounted receptacle for a garage door.

The code seems to allow an exception for ceiling mounted receptacles for such things as fluorescent lights, smoke detectors, etc. Is this correct?

4) All breakers must be of the "arc sensing" type. This even though some panels at my jobber (and home depot/Lowes) come with a few of the non-arc sensing breakers installed. Why is this discrepancy?

5) My jobber says that the GFCI breakers ARE NOT "arc sensing". Are they an exception to the rule or are GFCI arc sensing breakers just not available as yet?

Thanks.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 08:14 PM

Not all rec's have to be tamper resistant.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 08:16 PM

210.63 that rec doesn't have to be TR if it is not the same rec that is being used for your rec at grade level.

480sparky · 10-29-2009, 08:59 PM

To answer 1).:

406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units.
In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles.

210.52(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).

(B) Small Appliances.

(C) Countertops

(D) Bathrooms.

(E) Outdoor Outlets.

(F) Laundry Areas.

(G) Basements and Garages. For a one-family dwelling, the following provisions shall apply:
(1) At least one receptacle outlet, in addition to those for specific equipment, shall be installed in each basement, in each attached garage, and in each detached garage with electric power.
(2) Where a portion of the basement is finished into one or more habitable rooms, each separate unfinished portion shall have a receptacle outlet installed in accordance with this section.

(H) Hallways.

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To answer 2).:

No they are not. GFCI receptacles are Ground-Fault Circuit Interruptors. TR GFCIs are Tamper Resisitant Ground-Fault Circuit Interruptors. Two different animals.

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To answer 3).:

I see no exception for the door operator recep.

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To answer 4).:

Not all breakers.

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

Joe71 · 10-29-2009, 09:15 PM

Thanks for the good answers..

Ref: Item 2. What I mean here is:
A GFCI is a device for preventing a human from getting injured.
A Tamper Proof Outlet is another device for preventing humans from being injured.

It seems to me that a) the GFCI is a far superior method and b) the TPR feature added to a GFCI receptacle is simply "guilding the lily".

480sparky · 10-29-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe71

Thanks for the good answers..

Ref: Item 2. What I mean here is:
A GFCI is a device for preventing a human from getting injured.
A Tamper Proof Outlet is another device for preventing humans from being injured.

Anti-lock brakes on your truck is a safety device. So are seat belts. But seat belts have nothing to do with your brakes. The brakes are designed to stop the vehicle, hopefully before a crash. The seat belts are designed for what occurs if you don't stop in time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe71

It seems to me that a) the GFCI is a far superior method and b) the TPR feature added to a GFCI receptacle is simply "guilding the lily".

Wouldn't you rather prevent a child from sticking a paper clip into a receptacle to begin with, rather than rely on electronics to turn the power off after the child has received a shock?

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 09:20 PM

What about a WR TR GFI?

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

Wouldn't you rather prevent a child from sticking a paper clip into a receptacle to begin with, rather than rely on electronics to turn the power off after the child has received a shock?

No then the kid would look like your old avatar.

480sparky · 10-29-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1978

What about a WR TR GFI?

They're for "guilding the lily" outside.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

They're for "guilding the lily" outside.

Black4Truck · 10-29-2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

Not all breakers.

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition: Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

So only the (2) SABC in kitchen and washing machine circuit don't need AFCI

They will say EVERY 120V CIRCUIT in the next code change I bet

The manufactures of these AFCI breakers must be very happy

Joe71 · 10-29-2009, 10:03 PM

Re: Shall I depend on a GFCI or would I rather have a TR GFCI. Well.. 1) There is no "Absolutely Safe" protection against ANY hazard. and 2) I feel the GFCI is extremely reliable proven technology to which adding the TR feature adds little except making someone "feel good" that it is "safer". In the big scheme, the TR feature may add 0.01% additional safety but at what is going to be overall, a very substantial cost to the nation. Is it worth it if it saves just one human life? No. At present, I know of no GFCI failure that is blamed for a death so the whole principle of adding TR to a GFCI seems unnecessary.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe71

Is it worth it if it saves just one human life? No.

I disagree with you.

Joe71 · 10-29-2009, 10:14 PM

Then Williams1978, I recommend you a) stop driving motor vehicles (very dangerous), stop using electricity and inflammable gasses (very dangerous), stop leaving your home (very dangerous) and anything else you can think of. Why? Because all of these is more dangerous than that incremental danger posed by any GFCI without TR!

But you are most welcome to your opinion! Thanks for it.

idontknow · 10-29-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

Wouldn't you rather prevent a child from sticking a paper clip into a receptacle to begin with, rather than rely on electronics to turn the power off after the child has received a shock?

But if the child gnaws on a 2 wire cord, the GFI won't protect them either.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe71

Then Williams1978, I recommend you a) stop driving motor vehicles (very dangerous), stop using electricity and inflammable gasses (very dangerous), stop leaving your home (very dangerous) and anything else you can think of. Why? Because all of these is more dangerous than that incremental danger posed by any GFCI without TR!

But you are most welcome to your opinion! Thanks for it.

What I'm saying is. If it save just on life the I think it is worth every penny.

idontknow · 10-29-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black4Truck

So only the (2) SABC in kitchen and washing machine circuit don't need AFCI

They will say EVERY 120V CIRCUIT in the next code change I bet

The manufactures of these AFCI breakers must be very happy

What about the garage, bath receptacles & lighting, outside lighting and receptacles.

On the other hand, if your washing machine is in a closet, it would have to be AFCI protected. Unless I missed an exemption.

william1978 · 10-29-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idontknow

But if the child gnaws on a 2 wire cord, the GFI won't protect them either.

The AFCI will take it out then.

480sparky · 10-29-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idontknow

But if the child gnaws on a 2 wire cord, the GFI won't protect them either.

Then you need to feed your kids better.

Joe71 · 10-29-2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1978

What I'm saying is. If it save just one life then I think it is worth every penny.

But exactly HOW MUCH are you willing to pay to save one life? One Million $, Five Million $?? If we implement a safety regulation that costs more $ (and all do) then we must do a $ trade off on cost effectiveness. Otherwise, we can come up with some VERY undesirable (but effective) "safety changes".

I just maintain that some of the more recent changes do not offer any reasonable payback in human lives saved vs cost. Since I cannot find even ONE life extingushed by a faulty GFCI unit, I suggest that adding TR protection to something already about 100% effective is simply costly, frivolous and not productive of added safety to people.