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Old 07-05-2008, 04:23 PM   #1
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Lightbulb NEC 250.32 Grounding/Bonding Issue

Need some advice on interpreting (NEC 2008) 250.32 (a)(b) in a situation which I recently inherited. I am currently running conduit under the roof of a full metal church pavilion (40' x 60' x 12' commercial carport) to feed three GFI circuits and four overhead lighting circuits. The service feeds from a pole mounted meter base/panel 30 ft. from the structure to an 80 amp outdoor panel (no main) under the pavilion. My question is since the source disconnect is within sight and grounded at the point of service at the meter base do I need to add a grounding electrode at the pavilion panel and bond the grounded conductor there as well?

The pavilion panel currently has an insulated neutral and a separate ground wire back to the meter base/panel. I have another contractor telling me that he thinks that has changed and I need to bond in both places but my understanding is that the bonding always takes place at the first source of disconnect which would be the meter base/panel. This has been reaffirmed by previous electrical inspectors when I have installed subpanels in other instances.


Last edited by Lightning; 07-05-2008 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:57 PM   #2
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wow, a senior member with only 1 post.

Quote:
My question is since the source disconnect is within sight and grounded at the point of service at the meter base do I need to add a grounding electrode at the pavilion panel and bond the grounded conductor there as well?
what does that have to do with anything?

Not to be mean but do you really do this for a living?

This is not a difficult situation nor is it difficult to interpret that section of the code as to how it would apply to your situation. The fact you are havin ghtis much difficulty leads me to believe you have no experience in the field.

On top of everything else, you have a problem with something else that you have totally ignored, which makes me believe even more that you are not experienced in the trade.

Not trying to be an ass but this site is reserved for pro's and your questions tend to cause a bit of doubt, at least to me.

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Old 07-05-2008, 07:10 PM   #3
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How many posts do you have to have before becoming a senior member? Is it posts that mean anything or can you just repeat everyone else's to get your numbers up? But, just to add one more to my numbers and i'm only 44 so I guess I'm not a senior, I don't know anything about the 08 code but if it's a service it needs to be treated as such, if it's fed from the load side of an existing service then it needs to be treated as such. My guess would be the difference btween 230 and 225 and if you don't know the difference then hire someone that does.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:38 PM   #4
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Nap:

I think the word "professional" has a lot to do with how we present ourselves to others as well as how proficiently we do our work. If other "professionals" did not have questions then this forum would not exist. The words "professional" and "senior member" are subjective and not objective as you have demonstrated. Respectfully, I am not looking for your evaluation of my capabilities based upon the fact that I provided detailed information which you might consider worthless. I provided the detail to seek verification from a fellow "professional" which in this trade keeps others from getting injured. So just a simple answer would have been great.

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what does that have to do with anything?

Not to be mean but do you really do this for a living? This is not a difficult situation nor is it difficult to interpret that section of the code as to how it would apply to your situation. The fact you are havin ghtis much difficulty leads me to believe you have no experience in the field.

On top of everything else, you have a problem with something else that you have totally ignored, which makes me believe even more that you are not experienced in the trade.

Not trying to be an ass but this site is reserved for pro's and your questions tend to cause a bit of doubt, at least to me.
If you will look at the details in the post you will find that I had been told several different things by others in the field so I sought the advice of this forum - codes changed this year in states that adopted them. To quote a phrase I frequently see on this forum, "The question that is not asked is the stupid question." I already took care of the issue after posting on this forum but thought I would see what was posted in reply. Thank you for your time.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:51 PM   #5
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Lightning, if it has it's own meter then it's a service and 230 applies and the articles of 250 accordingly. If it's being fed from the load side of the service disconnecting means then you basically have a branch circuit/feeder and article 225 appplies and any relating articles. If you need additional info just ask.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:00 PM   #6
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I agree with nap, such a basic question leads me to believe were dealing with a handyman or a maintenance guy who to inexperienced to working by himself. But at least he's asking questions. The answer is 4 2+2=4
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:14 PM   #7
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5 posts, 6 now and only one with an answer. That's why I love this forum. You have a feeder and you need to have ground rod(s) driven at the location and your neutrals and grounds seperated. All this after I read it 3-4 times, Jose' is kickin me arse tonight.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:33 PM   #8
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1st, welcome to the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning
The pavilion panel currently has an insulated neutral and a separate ground wire back to the meter base/panel. I have another contractor telling me that he thinks that has changed and I need to bond in both places but my understanding is that the bonding always takes place at the first source of disconnect which would be the meter base/panel. This has been reaffirmed by previous electrical inspectors when I have installed subpanels in other instances.
The other contractor is incorrect. Although you will need another grounding electrode system, due to this being a separate structure, you will not rebond the neutral.


Generally a "junior member" is someone with under 30 posts. A "member" has 30 to 99 posts, and a "senior member" has 100 or more posts. You are able to use a custom user title. Nap, yours is accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nap
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
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5 posts, 6 now and only one with an answer. That's why I love this forum.
fine; if he can explain why the section I highllighted has anything to do with his situation, I would gladly provide a complete answer, including the part he did not ask but is the "situation" I referred to in my original post that is incorrect.

Not trying to bust your balls wirenut; I do respect your knowldege but read the post again and think about what he is asking. Then ask yourself; would anybody that does this for a living actually post the question he did and add the the clarifiactions and reasoning he did.

You should also realize the part I am referring to when I say he has another problem that he does not realize. You eluded to the reasoning in your post as to why his install is not legal as is, irrespective of the grounding situation.

Obviously, I'm not a mod and have no control over this forum but I believe it is the duty of the members to uphold the intent and rules of the forum lest it become not a electrician pro forum but simply an extension of the DIY chatroom where laymen are asked to post to.

Lightining:

Professional in this respect has nothing to do with:

Quote:
has a lot to do with how we present ourselves to others as well as how proficiently we do our work
In this context, it is only meant to refer to a person that is a professional electrician.

the term "senior member" unless they have changed things, is connected to those that have posted a specific amount. We do have the ability to alter that tag. By you altering that tag, it is a bit deceptive in itself as you are not a senior member and by claiming that position, I feel it is an attempt simply to deceive those here.

Quote:
Respectfully, I am not looking for your evaluation of my capabilities based upon the fact that I provided detailed information which you might consider worthless
It isn;'t that I feel it was worthless; on the contrary, it tells me youdo not understand the NEC and as a pro, are woefully untrained or simply not a pro.

Helping a non-pro is often more dangerous than not helping them. There are times when a person simply needs to admit they have no idea what they are doing and hire a pro to do it for them so they do not get killed.

I take my profession very seriously. I have been hurt before. I know others that have been injured very severly and have had local brothers that have died do to the profession we have chosen. I simply do not want to help somebody else kill themselves.

I would be very interested to hear what you have done to correct your problems as well as install what you have asked about.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:45 PM   #10
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Nap, are you PWI?

A new member asks 2 questions, for clarification on a NEC change and you jump down his throat. This is the REASON for this forum, not for the edification of someone who thinks he knows it all.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
1

Generally a "junior member" is someone with under 30 posts. A "member" has 30 to 99 posts, and a "senior member" has 100 or more posts. You are able to use a custom user title. Nap, yours is accurate.

I chose that for a reason. You must realize I put that there myself. I do not pretend to coddle those that are ignorant yet attempt to appear to be all knowing. Those are the folks that will get hurt by the little bit of info we here provide when they do not understand the reasoning behind it. There is so much more than simply " attach this to that and don't hook this to that" and such.

I simply asked the poster to show he is a pro and not simply some yahoo running wires and having no idea as to why. A monkey can pull the wire but it takes some education to realize why you are pulling it. Since this forum is supposed to be reserved for pro's, all I wanted was some proof he was not the monkey.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
Nap, are you PWI?

A new member asks 2 questions, for clarification on a NEC change and you jump down his throat. This is the REASON for this forum, not for the edification of someone who thinks he knows it all.

It was not the questions he asked. It was the fact he included the description of an incorrect install and used reasoning that did not apply. I simply asked him to clarify that info and put in perspective of the question asked.

If he cannot do that, he does not do this for a living and anything he is told needs to be with that in mind.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:49 PM   #13
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Not everyone in the trade is up to speed on the new NEC changes.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:51 PM   #14
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Let's just get this over with.

Lightning: Are you a real electrician or not?

I am in agreement that a real electrician would certainly know that you do need a grounding electrode at this separate structure.

What's the story???
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
Not everyone in the trade is up to speed on the new NEC changes.
Yeah, but John, this is not a new change.
A grounding electrode at a detached structure has been required for a long time.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:56 PM   #16
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Nap, sometimes people are just unsure of themsleves and especially when other "electricians" tell them something different then they just want to make sure. I'll be honest, I've seen on posts here and other forums that I don't do and disagree with and have even called my inspectors (which in my jurisdictions they are very well trained) and ask them "is this correct?" doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm doing. For example, this situation with a subpanel, we don't run 4 wires, we run 3 insulated and drive rods at the structure. We are only required to pull 4 wires if the structure had a water line that is metal.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:03 PM   #17
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If I may add , that's why we have so many different religions is because people interpret the bible in different ways.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Let's just get this over with.
Come on Petey, I myself was a "plant electrician" for almost 20 years before I went into business and it was a totally new world. If we can't come here with "stupid" questions, who are we to ask? the engineers?.. Hell, Ima skeered now to ask anything....lol
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:15 PM   #19
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all I asked was for lightning to explain the bolded part in my first post. His assumption was wrong and he not being able to, or willing to, defend his statement tells me he does not need to be doing what he is doing.

It sounds like he has been asking somebody a lot of questions and doing the best he can but it does not appear he understands the code or even the basics of the trade.

wirenut, you are apparently missing what I was referring to and it was not anything to do with grounding. I realize what the 08 code changed in regards to this and all it really did was remove the possibility of a 3 wire feed to a seperate building or structure and the rules that apply to an installation in that manner. It did not change the rules for the 4 wire intallation.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #20
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You're alright with me Nap

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