NEC reference article???? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

dora · 03-09-2007, 09:04 PM

Hi all, I'm new to the site, was invited over from another forum and decided to not only check it out but ask a question as well.

Being a home inspector I've gotta keep ontop of most things that'll effect my client so when I open up the electrical panels I'm able to quickly see any defects. A panel I was in recently had both a neutral and a ground wire landed together in the same hole on the neutral/ground buss bar.

Well, knowing that this is a big no-no I called it out on my report, along with a few other non-professional wiring practices, and suggested to my client to have a licensed electrician investigate/repair as necessary.

Anyhow, (sorry for this being so long), the realtor tells me tonight that the seller checked with the "licensed electricians" that are at his work place and they say there's no code violation having these wires landed as they are. Yeah right

I then tell the realtor I don't care what these "licensed electricians" say and that he and dem are wrong. So, I know there's an NEC article that says that neutrals need a dedicated hole but I have no idea what that is.

Could someone help me out and give me the NEC reference so I can use it as ammunition to prove that this seller is messed up. Thanks

MDShunk · 03-09-2007, 09:18 PM

Well, your liability is transferred, so I'm puzzled about your crusade, but here's your reference:

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each
grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard
in an individual terminal that is not also used for another
conductor.

The "grounded conductors" are the white conductors you see on that bar. The "grounds" (bare or green) can be doubled up if the panel's terminal torque/spec sticker permit 2 conductors (most do).

What inspection organization are you associated with? I ask because I think an HI citing code is generally poo-poo'd.

This didn't come in until the 2002 code. It is possible that the jurisdiction this home is in is not on the 2002 NEC yet. It wasn't until August of 2004 that my jurisdiction changed from the.... hold on to your pants... the 1981 NEC to the 2002 NEC.

dora · 03-09-2007, 09:32 PM

Well, my crusade is that I don't take a fancy to a seller trying to pull the wool over my clients eyes. My client pays me and trust me and I like them to feel secure in that I know what I'm talkin about when I tell them something.

I appreciate the reference, it'll be put to good use. And to answer your other question, I don't cite code, in fact that's a 4-letter word in my business. But, I take it upon myself to know code and to call something out that I see is wrong. This so I can provide my client with safe advice and cover my own derry air at the same time.

Thanks a ton!

Speedy Petey · 03-09-2007, 10:16 PM

Hey Dora! Welcome girly!

Marc, Dora is good people.

MDShunk · 03-09-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Hey Dora! Welcome girly!

Marc, Dora is good people.

Sorry, Dora.

Hugs and kisses from PA

Joe Momma · 03-09-2007, 11:34 PM

So what other problems were found in this residence Dora?
Just curious, and also how old is this place, rather the panel to be more specific?

And MD you have to be kidding......
the 1981 NEC was in effect until 3 years ago? What kind of hillbilly town do you live in? Are they also still wearing clothes and hair from that era too(not you but other/normal people)?

MDShunk · 03-10-2007, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

And MD you have to be kidding......
the 1981 NEC was in effect until 3 years ago? What kind of hillbilly town do you live in? Are they also still wearing clothes and hair from that era too(not you but other/normal people)?

No, Joe... I'm not kidding. Take at look at this link from a local town's official municipal code, updated January 2007. It still says that they're on the 1981 NEC (although that's no longer true, superceeded by state law). Chapter 86 in this code document.

http://www.e-codes.generalcode.com/c...%2Ehtm&cn=1&n=[1]

Joe Momma · 03-10-2007, 01:36 AM

The link showed up saying "my session has expired and I will be re-directed"

That's okay because I'll just take your word for it anyway. But I still wonder what sort of town sees the 81 code as the height of electrical knowledge? Did they even have GFI's back then, if so were they required to be installed anywhere?

MDShunk · 03-10-2007, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

But I still wonder what sort of town sees the 81 code as the height of electrical knowledge? Did they even have GFI's back then, if so were they required to be installed anywhere?

I don't know. In 1981, all I knew about electricity was that if you stuck a paperclip in both sides of the outlet, it got you out of typing class for that period. No power, electric typewriters no worky.

Joe Momma · 03-10-2007, 01:48 AM

.....uh.......what's a typewriter......?

MDShunk · 03-10-2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Momma

.....uh.......what's a typewriter......?

HA! Guess you never made a "mix tape" either? Or were never the envy of your friends because you had a boom box with "high speed dubbing"?

Speedy Petey · 03-10-2007, 07:02 AM

Marc stop it! The memories are killing me!

dora · 03-10-2007, 11:50 AM

Hi Speedy, Hey thanks for the invite! Yeah finally made it over here and it's a great place with lots of cool people too

Hi Joe, well, the house is 9 years old and the electrical panel was a 200 amp original panel. There wasn't any other defects inside the panel, but it was obvious that the homeowner did his own wiring elsewhere.

Half of the basement had been remodeled and on the unfinished side of the walls there were open juction boxs, open knockouts and unprotected romex. These new circuits were the ones that were landed on the buss bar wrong

Then there was some inproper use of extension cord wiring (connected to the receptacle below the main panel and extended above the drop ceiling to ???)

The main water piping from the street was plastic to the interior water meter and then copper piping on the other side of the meter fed throughout the house, but the bonding cable for the ground was clamped to the copper water piping approx. 20 feet from where the main water pipe entered the house. And just to know, Wisconsin currently utilizes the 2005 NEC.

And then a couple other things like a cracked receptacle and a waterproof cover missing on an exterior receptacle.

Anyhow, the realtor called me last night and said after talking with me she checked with HER electrician and he agreed with me that the wiring in the box was definatly wrong and she was ammending the offer to follow my advice and get a full inspection by a licensed electrician. Maybe now she'll believe me when I tell her something ya think

MDShunk · 03-10-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dora

The main water piping from the street was plastic to the interior water meter and then copper piping on the other side of the meter fed throughout the house, but the bonding cable for the ground was clamped to the copper water piping approx. 20 feet from where the main water pipe entered the house. And just to know, Wisconsin currently utilizes the 2005 NEC.:

That's legal. If the water line enters as non-metallic, you can bond the interior metallic piping anywhere that pleases you. I often take it to within 5' of the entrance "just in case" the entrance pipework is ever changed to metallic. You need only take the bond wire to within 5' of the entrance of the water line IF the bond wire is also your GEC.

dora · 03-10-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

That's legal. If the water line enters as non-metallic, you can bond the interior metallic piping anywhere that pleases you

That's great cause that so happens to be the only thing that I didn't report a defect on even though I believe it to be one.

So could you explain to me why it's not a defect cause my thinking is if someone decided to replace some metal piping between the water meter and the bond location with plastic then the metal piping on the house side of the meter wouldn't be bonded in this case.

Reason this doesn't make sense is cause even if a home has a couple of ground rods and has a metal water main, the bond is still required to go to within 5' of where it enters the house but not for a plastic water main. Same scenario could still happen though whether the main is metal or plastic right.

jwhite · 03-11-2007, 11:49 AM

If the water pipe is metal comming into the house and is in contact with at least 10 foot of dirt, it is used as the primary grounding electrode because it is the best one available. When this is done there is no need to bond the water pipes elsewhere although jumpers may be needed around the water meter and hot water tank.

If the water pipes entering the house are plastic then the bond to the water lines is just that. A bond in case an electric wire comes in accidental contact with the metal pipes. Since it is not the primary grounding electrode, there is no need to worry about where it is in the system.

frank · 03-11-2007, 04:50 PM

If the water pipe is metal comming into the house and is in contact with at least 10 foot of dirt, it is used as the primary grounding electrode because it is the best one available

Hi Folks.

Can you please explain for me what precautions are taken to protect aginst indirect electric shock should the 'water main primary earth. become open circuited.

Sounds like a dangerous practice to me but I am sure I am missing something here,

Frank

MDShunk · 03-11-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank

Can you please explain for me what precautions are taken to protect aginst indirect electric shock should the 'water main primary earth. become open circuited.

Sounds like a dangerous practice to me but I am sure I am missing something here,

It doesn't carry current. That's how. It's there in case of a lightening strike or high voltage surge on the incoming neutral. Hopefully it will earth some of the surge and prevent as much equipment damage. Every normal day, it's just a piece of wire doing nothing. Well....Kirchoff's law... okay. It carries a trickle.

frank · 03-12-2007, 11:26 AM

MD

I think I am thinking UK Standards here. So thats why I am confused.
So what happens if the neutral becomes open circuit downstream of the 'ground/neutral bond'. Won't the waterpipe now become the main neutral current carrying return.

I guess I need diagrams of your consumer end connections vis; supply side provisions.
Here in the UK the main ground lead must not be formed by any pipework but water.gas,oil and other metalic systems are bonded to a designated ground. ie, One provided by the Supply Company either as a neutral earth connector or as a lug available on the cable armouring. If not available then an electrode to which all other grounds are bonded but none of which is a primary earth.

Everything is the same, But different.

Frank

robertwilber · 03-12-2007, 02:09 PM

well, you at least have to get out the '96 code to check for requirements, and a lot of places around here were using the '87 code as late as '96.
Then you have to go get the manufacturers specs for the installed equipment and see what the UL [or other listing agency] requirements for installation are.
When I started in the trade, common practice was to insert the grounding conductor and the grounded conductor from a circuit in the same hole in the neutral bus. This had been started as a practice when full-size grounds became the norm.
....but homeowner garbage is just that, garbage. Most people can do most things, but shouldn't if they cannot turn out a professional level result. It isn't like baking a cake, which you eat and forget [though I know some people who should definitely NOT be allowed to prepare food]. Don't get me wrong, I resent the "pros" who have the attitude that "you can't see it from my house!"
I have [and always have had] concerns about untrained [and I consider the majority of home inspectors untrained] personnel pulling panel covers [safety issue, not jealousy].