MDShunk

I share that same concern. Some home inspectors are employees. I wonder if they're following NFPA 70E requirements when they pull a panel cover?

Joe Momma

This home inspector appears to be well advised.
But I wish the home inspector would've pulled the cover at my cousins house he bought last year, or even knew what he was looking at when he did.

Luckily my cousin called me to move his panel and I was able to make things as safe as possible, But I couldn't believe or even explain what I saw when I tore into his place where he planned to raise his brand new family(kids anyway)

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JohnJ0906

Frank, I admit I have come to agree that using the incoming water pipe as a grounding electrode can be dangerous. My concern is that if, say my neighbor loses his service neutral, his neutral current will travel through the water pipe to my panel seeking it's return path to the source. My understanding is that this is not unknown, and seems dangerous to me!. I would prefer that a non-conductive fitting of some sort be used to isolate interior piping from exterior, and not using it as an electrode. (you still have to bond the interior metal piping of course.) JMHO

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John from Baltimore
"One day at a Time"
All responses based on the '08 NEC
It's not my fault, it's not my problem, I'm not your solution.

frank

HI John.

Yes it does happen as you say. I have come accross this problem on older installations. People getting shocks from radiators etc.where an open circuit neutral exists A dedicated ground path is the only sure fire way of(helping) to prevent problems. Which is probably why our code now does not any longer allow this. But even then, nothing is gauranteed,

Frank

brian john

John I have investigated this issue numerous times and it can be a concern.

If you have other electrodes, then a coupling can be installed to minimize this issue at your connection prior to exiting your resisdence.

There is a website APPLE A DAY or something like that that recommends removing your water pipe ground electrode connection (for health reasons) without verifying you have other known electrodes. I sent them a CURT email, but have not recieved a response.

What determines that?


Frank if the water utility becomes open a person will get a shock? or did I misread your post?

Joe Momma

I believe other problems would arise before a person recieved a shock from an open neutral situation.

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rod213

Regarding water pipe grounds, I've seen situations where pump motors for wells have went bad and somehow have backfed to the plumbing and shocking the people when the were turning the shower on.

Wow! How's that for a run on sentence.

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-Rodney

brian john

Open neutral is one issue I thought the item (as I read it or misread it wa in regards to a missing GEC to the water pipe?

frank

Brian

I was trying to understand the grounding system in the USA. It differs a little from that found in the UK. I noticed in a 'post' that in the USA a Utility water Pipe can be utilised as the main earth path electrode.

This being the case I wondered what the US Code required such that if the Utility Water Pipe ground/earth cable was open circuit, what provisions are made to prevent fault currents passing through adjacent pipework.metalwork bath tubs, heating systems etc.?
And if the neutral should become open circuit what US code provisions are there to protect against a neutral and earth short with an open circuit neutral at the same time.
Here in the UK we use a mains born GFI (rcd) to monitor out of balance currents and so switch off the supply to the 'breaker box'. See I am getting Americanised.


Frank

brian john

Hey Frank:

My wife is from Portsmouth, her mum actually lives about 5 or 6 blocks from the IOW ferry terminal. I have spent some time looking at the UK wiring, though mostly old row houses. And I have a friend in Brighton that is an electrician, who I have discussed issues with over the years.

Anyway, the utility water pipe was for years the only grounding electrode (gas was also used) utilized in most residences and commercial facilities as the grounding electrode. Today it is supplemented with a driven 8' ground electrode (rod) or two (depends on certain conditions I will avoid delving into because they make NO SENSE). Plates, pipes and concrete encased electrodes are also utilized.

The main reasoning behind this was the switch to non-metallic piping, there is a lot of concern by the utilities that the connection was degrading their piping (not proven in AC distribution) and the possible hazard from shock to utility workers when they opened the pipe and there was ground current on the water pipe. This was happening when the water pipe was continuous between houses on the same transformer and was worse when a neutral was open at one house and all the neutral current was on the water pipe.

The ground electrode serves no real purpose in relation to clearing faults or shock hazard. The main purpose of the grounding electrode is in case of lightning strikes and accidental fault between the primary and secondary of the utility transformer (both of which can be a shock hazard).

A lot of emphasis is placed on this rod we drive into the earth, more than we place on other major issues in my opinion.

A few questions for you:

What do you call?

The neutral/grounded conductor.

The conductor between the service neutral to ground jumper to the electrode.

The ground electrode.

And are you utilizing AFCI circuit breakers.

Do all you appliances still come without a cord cap (plug)

Joe Momma

The water pipe electrode is only supplementary to another elctrode and is only set up that way to keep all plumbing fixtures at zero potential and not designed to carry any fault current whatsoever.
For fault current is why we run a 'grounded conductor' to every device and bond it to every metallic electrical enclosure.
It's only by coincidence that the 'grounded conductor' is also bonded to the water pipe or ground rods or any other grounding electrode.

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Joe Momma was here

brian john

Joe the water pipe electrode was the grounding electrode for years, it is only recently that a driven electrode was required (I'll check the code cycle Monday) that was why there was a requirement to make your connection at the street side of the water main. The bonding issue is where there is plastic incoming water pipe.

And the reason we bond this water pipe is to carry fault current in the house back to the main neutral/grounded conductor through the ground bonding jumper, this allows fault current to return to the source; the utiity transformer.

An example would be a conductor laying on a water pipe shorting to the pipe, if the piping was not bonded the water pipe would be energized then anyone coming between the water pipe and a grounded item would recieve a shock.

frank

Hi Brian

Well. We speak the same language but don't understand each other!. So if I have interpereted you correctly--- here goes.

Question 1. We call this the MAIN EARTH CONDUCTOR.

Question 2. We call this the SCOURCE EARTH MAIN EARTH CONDUCTOR.

Question 3. We call this the EARTH ELECTRODE.

Question 4. Arc Fault Circiut breakers are available but little used . So many variants of standard breakers are available that Arc Fault Types don't jusify cost.

Question 5. All appliances are supplied with a moulded 'plug head'. (Cord Cap) Have been obligatory for the past 10 years or so.

Question 6

How do you come to have an English wife? Were you a GI or something?I have a friend in Potstown PA who married an English girl. He met her whilst he was on sabatical after touring the UK following his demob from the Army after his time in Vietnam.

I shall be in MA in a few weeks and quite possibly mid PA. So like yourself I shall be checking out the systems there once more. Anne (the wife) thinks i'm potty.mmmmmmmmmmmm. could it be true?

Frank

brian john

I was hoping we in the states would incorporate the term EARTHED in our NEC to simplify the terminology, but alas not to be in this code cycle.

My wife was Mary Poppins, the perfect woman in every way, and a nanny in Washington DC when I met her. We dated several years, she tried to straighten me out and has pretty much succeeded (I THINK).

Strange thing is my sister married an English man, and my brother dated an English woman for years, but he WAS SMART he never married.

We won't be going to England this year Sharon (her sister) will visit once again (3rd year in a row) and me mum-in-law will be coming later.

My family (Dad) is originally from MA, where will you be visiting in MA and PA?

frank

Hi Brian


Is smart OK not to be married? Who gets to bring your hot milk to bed when you have the flu ?

We shall be on the Cape and then going to Adamstown PA. Not visiting anyone. Just taking in the sights. Fly out 1st May. Come back 14th May. Then on the 23rd May fly to Italy where my son is getting married. Fly back to UK 27th May and get back to work.
It's all go.


Frank

brian john

Adamstown PA... What are the sites?

MDShunk

I was wondering the same thing. It's in the middle of PA Dutch farmland, for the most part. People go antiquing over in that neck of the woods quite a bit.

brian john

My English in laws love the Amish country, Lancaster and around there, they especially love Intercourse and Blue Ball memorabilia. Go Figure.

frank

Just the Amish country. Last year we visited Gettisburgh. Came back through Adamstown on the way to Boston. Liked the look of the place and bought a couple of nice vintage radios. Anne liked the antiques and we both would like to see more.
Strange how simple things can keep you occupied!!!

Frank