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Old 02-05-2011, 11:21 AM   #1
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Default TO NY State residential electricians, clarification on AFCI, etc.

This is a cross post from a high up code official in NY State. I am working on getting the documentation on this.

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NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Division of Code Enforcement and Administration
99 Washington Avenue Albany, New York 12231
Phone no. (518) 474-4073 [Fax] (518) 486-4487

M E M O R A N D U M



DATE: February 3, 2011
TO: Regional Staff
FROM: Cheryl A. Fischer, P.E. Assistant Director for Code Interpretation
NOTE: Residential electrical system changes

This is to clarify whether the replacement of an electrical panel box requires the existing breakers to be replaced with arc-fault breakers. NO. Residential Code of New York State Section E3802.11, Arc-fault-interrupter protection is applicable to NEW installations. For instance, there is a new panel box and new additional circuits. Section J407.1, Electrical material (repair), states:
Existing electrical wiring and equipment undergoing repair shall be allowed to be repaired or replaced with like material.
Section J508.1, Electrical general (alteration-level 1) states:
Any alteration to an existing electrical system shall be made in conformity with the provisions of Chapter R33 through Chapter R42.
Section J608.1, Electrical general (alteration-level 2), states:
Any alteration to an existing electrical system relating to work done in any work area shall be made in conformity with the provisions of Chapter R33 through Chapter R42.
Section J608.2, Increased loads, states:
Where alterations subject portions of existing electrical systems to increased loads, such portions shall be made to comply with Chapter R33 through Chapter R42.
Section J608.3, Electrical service, states:
Service to dwelling units shall be a minimum of 100 ampere, three-wire capacity, and service equipment shall be dead front having no live parts exposed whereby accidental contact could be made. Type "S" fuses shall be installed when fused equipment is used.
Exception: Existing service of 60 ampere, three-wire capacity, and feeders of 30 ampere or larger two-or three-wire capacity shall be accepted if adequate for the electrical load being served.
Section J608.4, Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection, states:
Ground-fault and arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided on newly installed receptacle outlets as required by Section RE3802.
There is no code section that requires the existing circuits to have ground-fault circuit-interrupters, only new circuits. There are configurations where old wiring cannot handle the arc-faults and cause unexpected trips.


This response is limited to the specific question asked and should not be interpreted to give implied approval of any general plans or specifications.

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Old 02-05-2011, 11:23 AM   #2
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That's pretty much the same way it's handled here

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Old 02-05-2011, 11:23 AM   #3
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It's rare to see stuff like that spelled out so clearly.

"Assistant Director for Code Interpretation"? That's someone's job? Hmmm.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:28 AM   #4
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The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations.
I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations.
I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.

But some lawyer could get you out of a jam with that.

But you (I) would never sleep the same if not corrected.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:28 PM   #6
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Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:33 PM   #7
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Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.

No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desar View Post
Hope I'm not getting in to late. I wouldn't install afci in that situation. In the 2011 under articl 210.12 afci that any exstension from an existing circuit is required to have afci protection installed either at the point of connection to the existing circuit or at the origin of the existing circuit.

No one makes a afci receptacle yet ,that I'm awair of.
No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:57 PM   #9
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Mass didn't make an amendment to this article.I was surprised because In the mass amendments rule #3 say an existing installation doesn't have to be brought up to unless major safety violation.This is the reason you didn't have to install afci breakers on a service change.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by leland View Post
But some lawyer could get you out of a jam with that.

But you (I) would never sleep the same if not corrected.
I agree whole heartedly with leland. To not correct it wouild be downright irresponsible.
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:04 PM   #11
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In Oklahoma we had an Inspector make us put AFCI's in every house we were doing because we were changing the service from OH to UG. After about 6 months of constant trouble calls AEP got it fixed so we could remove them... It was ridiculous....
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by bruce6670 View Post
Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.
I have put them in because an insurance company required it. And I had a house get hit by lighting that the insurance wouldn't replace all the wiring. Here is one of the boxes after the hit. So I installed arcfault breakers feeding the circuits where there was damage. This box had it's wall plate blown off and you can see the back of the box is gone too.
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce6670 View Post
Are there times when you guys use AFCI breakers even though you don't legally have to? Like in an old house that may have some old wiring that you just can see.
yes

and the insurance company sanctioned it

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Old 05-26-2011, 10:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
The GFI thing got me. They are flat out saying if you replace a receptacle in an old bathroom you do NOT have to provide GFI protection. ONLY for new installations.
I had this wrong. Although I must say, to not provide GFI would be pretty careless IMO.
Is this true in Ca. as well?
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:28 PM   #15
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Is this true in Ca. as well?
Nothing else on this planet follows CA code.. I found hazardous chemical stickers on fixtures manufactured inCA..

The stickers had to do with the conductors used in the manufacture of the fixture..
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HARRY304E View Post
No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..


I believe the route we're going, is if it's not GFI protected it will be AFCI protected.
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:51 PM   #17
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In NH you don't have to unless the panel is located in an area that needs arc-fault protection. So, if you have a panel in a living room or what have you, you have to update the panel with AFCIs. If it is located in a basement or garage, you are all set.
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Going_Commando
In NH you don't have to unless the panel is located in an area that needs arc-fault protection. So, if you have a panel in a living room or what have you, you have to update the panel with AFCIs. If it is located in a basement or garage, you are all set.
I'm sorry. This makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.
What in the world does panel location have to do with AFCI requirements.
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HARRY304E View Post
No they don't make one, that meens you have to install an AFCI breaker unless there is a mass code amendment that says otherwise..
They do make the AFCI receptacle
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:16 AM   #20
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Default Gfi / afci

Has anyone tried putting a gfi on an afci breaker? Will it cause excessive tripping on either end? I cannot find anything in the code that says I cannot do this, but then I'm not sure if it will work correctly?

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