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Old 04-04-2011, 04:19 PM   #1
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Question Outdoor Hot Tub

I'm going to scope out a hot tub install. Don't have 2011 NEC handy. What's up with bonding grid requirements? The tub is sitting on pavers right now and is a new install.

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Old 04-04-2011, 04:20 PM   #2
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We just run a #8 bare around them. I had one on a deck 10 feet in air.......I had to install the bonding grid in ground and run wire to tub on deck...

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Old 04-04-2011, 04:20 PM   #3
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Trunkslammer.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricmanscott View Post
... The tub is sitting on pavers right now and is a new install.
That's a bummer, because they make some really nice bonding grid solutions to go under pavers, before they're installed.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:35 PM   #5
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That's a bummer, because they make some really nice bonding grid solutions to go under pavers, before they're installed.
Yeah, I just want to be 100% sure before I break the bad news.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricmanscott View Post
Yeah, I just want to be 100% sure before I break the bad news.
Read this...

(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor
shall be provided.
(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter
surface.
(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 mm to 600 mm
(18 in. to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under
the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to
6 in.) below the subgrade.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:48 PM   #7
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Thanks guys. I know the requirements but was concerned there may be changes for 2011 I'm not aware of.


Thanks for the help.
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:09 PM   #8
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Trunkslammer.
Well said.

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Old 04-04-2011, 05:34 PM   #9
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Reference:
680.42(B)

TIA 11-1

(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)

Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70 ®, National Electrical Code®, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel 17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011, with an effective date of March 21, 2011.

A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.

1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding.
Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009,

Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.

Issue Date: March 1, 2011
Effective Date: March 21, 2011
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:36 PM   #10
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I would call your inspector and ask him if they require it. One time I called and they said they didn't care. I won't be using that as a basis for not installing one in the future but in that instance they would have passed it.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwjrw View Post
We just run a #8 bare around them. I had one on a deck 10 feet in air.......I had to install the bonding grid in ground and run wire to tub on deck...
Read this...

(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor
shall be provided.
(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter
surface.
(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 mm to 600 mm
(18 in. to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under
the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to
6 in.) below the subgrade.


This means the required #8 needed to be installed in the deck framing 10 ft in the air.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Read this...

(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor
shall be provided.
(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter
surface.
(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 mm to 600 mm
(18 in. to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under
the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to
6 in.) below the subgrade.


This means the required #8 needed to be installed in the deck framing 10 ft in the air.


Not according to the state DOI here....
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:42 PM   #13
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Not according to the state DOI here....
Here in NJ the #8 has to be 4 to 6" below the subgrade which means drilled through the deck.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Read this...

(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor
shall be provided.
(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter
surface.
(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 mm to 600 mm
(18 in. to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under
the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to
6 in.) below the subgrade.


This means the required #8 needed to be installed in the deck framing 10 ft in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Here in NJ the #8 has to be 4 to 6" below the subgrade which means drilled through the deck.

The deck is not the subgrade.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Read this...

(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor
shall be provided.
(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter
surface.
(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 mm to 600 mm
(18 in. to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under
the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to
6 in.) below the subgrade.


This means the required #8 needed to be installed in the deck framing 10 ft in the air.

Had an inspector tell me I had to SECURE the #8. He failed me for just laying it in the trench with stone dust holding it down. I had to stake the wire to the ground.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
Reference:
680.42(B)

TIA 11-1

(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)

Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70 ®, National Electrical Code®, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel 17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011, with an effective date of March 21, 2011.

A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.

1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding.
Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009,

Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.

Issue Date: March 1, 2011
Effective Date: March 21, 2011
So I am going to do a hot tub next week on renovation job I finished up in the fall. The landscaper was nice enought to run me a conduit under the pavers and stub it up exactly where it needed to be. They didn't run a bond wire because the hot tub guy told them that as of last month they didn't have too.

Now I know where he got that from,too bad for him though because NJ won't be using the 2011 code until sometime in 2013

Just got off the phone with him he insists that it is effective now because it is 2011
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Here in NJ the #8 has to be 4 to 6" below the subgrade which means drilled through the deck.

4 to 6 inches below the deck is empty space. The wood decking is only 1 1/2 " thick.....According to Ron C at the NC Dept of Insurance the grid was to be installed in the ground and the bond ran up to the tub. Right or wrong that is what the DOI made us do.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:10 PM   #18
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The deck is not the subgrade.
According to the DCA here in New Jersey it is.

Last edited by electures; 04-05-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
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According to the DCA here in New Jersey it is.
I demand it in writing. (Not being a ballbuster, seriously I need to see how they manipulated earth and rock into what is known as a deck.)
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:18 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwjrw View Post
We just run a #8 bare around them. I had one on a deck 10 feet in air.......I had to install the bonding grid in ground and run wire to tub on deck...
Seriously?

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