Pool feeder - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

ralph · 08-22-2010, 06:14 PM

I need a little help on this ( code book is in a gang box on a job ). Im Anyone know the art # on; a pool panel feed in a new single family home,whether or not the feed has to be an insulated ground, not a piece of ser cable ? Im guessing 680.21, but Im not positive. I am going to have a knock down - drag out with a builder tomorrow am.
i cant remember where it says you can run an uninsulated ground, was it a portable pool ?
Thanks for the help

RIVETER · 08-22-2010, 06:24 PM

Why have a "knock down, drag out"? The difference in price is small. You should ask us why would there be any difference between an insulated...or uninsulated ground(EGC).

BEAMEUP · 08-22-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

I need a little help on this ( code book is in a gang box on a job ). Im Anyone know the art # on; a pool panel feed in a new single family home,whether or not the feed has to be an insulated ground, not a piece of ser cable ? Im guessing 680.21, but Im not positive. I am going to have a knock down - drag out with a builder tomorrow am.
i cant remember where it says you can run an uninsulated ground, was it a portable pool ?
Thanks for the help

680.21(4) You are right it can be uninsulated & SER cable if it is inside of the home.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Why have a "knock down, drag out"? The difference in price is small. You should ask us why would there be any difference between an insulated...or uninsulated ground(EGC).

Why,
I didnt wire the house, and the pool contractor wants to hire me to wire the pool. The electrician that did the house says im full of it, and you can run romex ,( or ser) to feed the pool equipment.
Im just asking for that particular code art # .
I guess i should have a book in the truck and at home.

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-22-2010, 06:55 PM

Ralph, you want art. 680.25 not 680.21

Quote:

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).
(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
(1) Size. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 but not smaller than 8 AWG.
(2) Separate Buildings. A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the requirements in 250.32(B). Where installed in other than existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, a separate equipment grounding conductor shall be an insulated conductor.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

Why,
I didnt wire the house, and the pool contractor wants to hire me to wire the pool. The electrician that did the house says im full of it, and you can run romex ,( or ser) to feed the pool equipment.
Im just asking for that particular code art # .
I guess i should have a book in the truck and at home.

Also, he was paid to feed he pool. He ran 6-3 ser, and got 500 bucks to do it. Now the pool guy wants to hire me to put the jandy on this 6-3, and hook up1 heater, 1 chiller, and 3 pumps.
The pool is in the backyard, and the feed comes from the loadcenter in the house. There is def going to be a problem

Shockdoc · 08-22-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

Also, he was paid to feed he pool. He ran 6-3 ser, and got 500 bucks to do it. Now the pool guy wants to hire me to put the jandy on this 6-3, and hook up1 heater, 1 chiller, and 3 pumps.
The pool is in the backyard, and the feed comes from the loadcenter in the house. There is def going to be a problem

Those Jandy boxes are a world of headaches, charge extra for the future harassment you will receive over weak signals and failing equipment. The minimum feeder size is 30 amps for a sub panel. It sounds as if the 6/3 ser(assuming its al) is borderline for you loads( gas heater) , if it's a heat pump you're definetly undersized.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockdoc

Those Jandy boxes are a world of headaches, charge extra for the future harassment you will receive over weak signals and failing equipment. The minimum feeder size is 30 amps for a sub panel. It sounds as if the 6/3 ser(assuming its al) is borderline for you loads( gas heater) , if it's a heat pump you're definetly undersized.

I stopped by yesturday, and the heater is a min 40 a breaker.,
yes , they ran 6-3 AL

RIVETER · 08-22-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

Also, he was paid to feed he pool. He ran 6-3 ser, and got 500 bucks to do it. Now the pool guy wants to hire me to put the jandy on this 6-3, and hook up1 heater, 1 chiller, and 3 pumps.
The pool is in the backyard, and the feed comes from the loadcenter in the house. There is def going to be a problem

I don't get out much. What's a "jandy"?

Shockdoc · 08-22-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

I stopped by yesturday, and the heater is a min 40 a breaker.,
yes , they ran 6-3 AL

That means the compressor run current will be about 35 amps, motors at 230 volts will be at 7.5 amps ea, if all start up at once you will have some heavy fla draw. I normally run #6's or #4s copper for luxury pools w/ heat pumps. you might have to install a dpdt relay to lockout one pump or other device depending on your overall draw if you keep the existing feeder.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

I don't get out much. What's a "jandy"?

I guess Jandy is a brand name of a co that makes pool stuff, pumps, jets , controllers. There are others that make the same equipment

RIVETER · 08-22-2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

I guess Jandy is a brand name of a co that makes pool stuff, pumps, jets , controllers. There are others that make the same equipment

Okay, new one on me. I have wired a lot of pools but that has been 20 years ago. Thanks.

Shockdoc · 08-22-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

I guess Jandy is a brand name of a co that makes pool stuff, pumps, jets , controllers. There are others that make the same equipment

Jandy is a upgraded Intermatic style pool panel that uses cat 5 hardwired and wireless remotes to control a PC board and a host of relays. Nice idea but absolute junk.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockdoc

That means the compressor run current will be about 35 amps, motors at 230 volts will be at 7.5 amps ea, if all start up at once you will have some heavy fla draw. I normally run #6's or #4s copper for luxury pools w/ heat pumps. you might have to install a dpdt relay to lockout one pump or other device depending on your overall draw if you keep the existing feeder.

I dont think that existing feeder can be used if its not an insulated ground. They might as well run pipe, and put # 4 copper in it

Shockdoc · 08-22-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

I dont think that existing feeder can be used if its not an insulated ground. They might as well run pipe, and put # 4 copper in it

Only if the equipment is located inside the four walls of the home. We always run ENT for inside runs and convert to pvc at the exterior and pull conductors such as two fours, a six EGC and an eight insulated GC.

ralph · 08-22-2010, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph

Also, he was paid to feed he pool. He ran 6-3 ser, and got 500 bucks to do it. Now the pool guy wants to hire me to put the jandy on this 6-3, and hook up1 heater, 1 chiller, and 3 pumps.
The pool is in the backyard, and the feed comes from the loadcenter in the house. There is def going to be a problem

I forgot to mention, the pool service area is enclosed,and not big enough. The most real estate I can find is I think is about 2 1/2 ft from the controller to pumps,heaters, or tanks.
Design flaw with the builder I guess