Spa GFCI Disconnect - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Budman118 · 03-30-2009, 06:06 PM

Ok. Here's one for all of you. I go to a job today to complete the electrical installation for a spa. Already installed the disconnect last week, but hot tub had not arrived yet. I start running the wire to the unit when I notice the sticker on the control panel of the hot tub says it is a 3-wire appliance. It is a non-convertible 240VAC unit. The only changes I can make are for either 40,50, or 60 amp. So I am not sure how to connect a 240 volt 3 wire circuit on the load side of a 240v GFCI breaker (because I've never seen it done). The manual and the electrician that does a lot of the installs for them (hmmm) says you just don't hook up the neutral wire on the breaker. You tie it in on the line side but not on the load side. So the unit only gets 2 hot legs for the 240v, and a ground. My reasoning then is that that completely bypasses the GFCI, and it is essentially the same as a standard 2 pole. Is that right? Can the breaker read potential from hot to hot? With no neutral hooked up on the load side of the breaker, is the hot tub still gfci protected? Just wondering if anyone can shed some light.

Chris Kennedy · 03-30-2009, 06:11 PM

The breaker neutral goes to the neutral bar. The breaker load neutral is empty. The breaker will function properly this way.

electricista · 03-30-2009, 06:26 PM

I agree with Chris and I want to stress that the neutral from the breaker MUST be installed to the neutral bar in the panel

MDShunk · 03-30-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budman118

With no neutral hooked up on the load side of the breaker, is the hot tub still gfci protected? Just wondering if anyone can shed some light.

Yes, if everything "leaving" on the one hot is not "returning" on the other hot, the breaker assumes that there's a ground fault someplace and trips. Just envision the GFCI breaker doing a zero sequence test.

MDShunk · 03-30-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricista

I agree with Chris and I want to stress that the neutral from the breaker MUST be installed to the neutral bar in the panel

for completeness sake... to simply power the electronics of the breaker, in this case.

Budman118 · 03-30-2009, 06:37 PM

Before I posted here, I talked to a couple of other electricians I work with and their thoughts were the same as mine. So I called the breaker mfr. and the disconnect mfr. and talked to one of the engineers from each place.(Two different companies) They both said for the residential breakers they do not measure between the two hots only from hot to neutral, on both legs. Not disagreeing with anyone just want to make sure the unit is safe. How can it measure if the load on the neutral is not installed? Or is it only because the hot tub was designed so as not to need a neutral? Just a ground.

MDShunk · 03-30-2009, 06:41 PM

Google zero sequence test.

If you called all those people, what are you asking for?

Anyhow, it works fine.

Both hots and the neutral go through one donut CT inside the breaker. If the reading is more than 6 milliamps, it trips. Doesn't matter if the neutral has a load on it or not.

Smash one apart and look for yourself if you won't believe me.

Budman118 · 03-30-2009, 06:45 PM

I believe you, and appreciate your input. If I didn't want to know the truth I would not have posted it here. I never believe engineers, which is why I submitted it to this forum. Thanks again for the explanation.

Chris Kennedy · 03-30-2009, 07:01 PM

Hey Budman, you will sleep better if you see page 3 of this link.

MDShunk · 03-30-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Kennedy

Hey Budman, you will sleep better if you see page 3 of this link.

Just the picture I was hunting. Thanks Chris.

Chris Kennedy · 03-30-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

Just the picture I was hunting. Thanks Chris.

Who taught me the right way to Google? Thanks my friend.

Budman118 · 03-30-2009, 08:15 PM

Thanks a lot for the info Chris and MDShunk. I have done a lot of electrical work but not so much with spas and pools. Funny, the engineers are not even sure of what they do. That's why I came here. Thanks again.

noproron · 09-21-2009, 04:54 PM

I decided to join just to clear up all the vague information listed on this subject. If you do not run the grounds to the neutral bar the spa will run but the "test" will not work , therefore the GFCI is not working. So you can not just leave the pigtail from the breaker isolated from the ground. When the ground and neutral bars in the spa panel are jumpered in any fashion the system works fine and the test button responds appropriately and provides the protection it is designed for. This is for a Jacuzzi J230, a typical 3 wire system with two hots, ground and no neutral. You do not need a neutral from the main panel to the spa panel as some forums state and the neutral terminal in the spa panel breaker (probably marked as "neutral load") does not get connected to anything. I also talked to the engineer who works for the manufacturer of the spa panel and he didn't know!

Speedy Petey · 09-21-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

I decided to join just to clear up all the vague information listed on this subject. If you do not run the grounds to the neutral bar the spa will run but the "test" will not work , therefore the GFCI is not working. So you can not just leave the pigtail from the breaker isolated from the ground. When the ground and neutral bars in the spa panel are jumpered in any fashion the system works fine and the test button responds appropriately and provides the protection it is designed for. This is for a Jacuzzi J230, a typical 3 wire system with two hots, ground and no neutral. You do not need a neutral from the main panel to the spa panel as some forums state. I also talked to the engineer who works for the manufacturer of the spa panel and he didn't know!

I am not sure what you are saying here. You keep referring to a "spa panel", which I assume is the panel that holds the GFI breaker. If so then then a neutral ABSOLUTELY does need to be run to it.
There is nothing vague being said here. Simple explanation is; a neutral MUST be run to the GFI breaker. Meaning the white tail from the GFGI breaker MUST be terminated on a valid neutral bar. You do NOT however need a load neutral connected for it to work (and test) properly.
A 240v load will not have a neutral. A 120/240v load will.

Celtic · 09-21-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

I decided to join just to clear up all the vague information listed on this subject.

Nothing seemed vague until this post.....

mcclary's electrical · 09-21-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

I decided to join just to clear up all the vague information listed on this subject. If you do not run the grounds to the neutral bar the spa will run but the "test" will not work , therefore the GFCI is not working. So you can not just leave the pigtail from the breaker isolated from the ground. When the ground and neutral bars in the spa panel are jumpered in any fashion the system works fine and the test button responds appropriately and provides the protection it is designed for. This is for a Jacuzzi J230, a typical 3 wire system with two hots, ground and no neutral. You do not need a neutral from the main panel to the spa panel as some forums state and the neutral terminal in the spa panel breaker (probably marked as "neutral load") does not get connected to anything. I also talked to the engineer who works for the manufacturer of the spa panel and he didn't know!

There are AT LEAST FOUR things WRONG about this paragraph

Celtic · 09-21-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcclary's electrical

There are AT LEAST FOUR things WRONG about this paragraph

Do we need the spelling police?

noproron · 09-21-2009, 06:14 PM

Wouldn't it have made more sense to point out what the four plus things are rather than just the criticism?

I should have also added that 2/1 #6 wire was run to the spa panel as there was no requirement for a neutral at the spa. I am essentially duplicating what would happen in the main panel. The GFCI breaker is in a spa panel and not the main panel. The two hots run from a 60 amp breaker in the main panel. This may or may not be the situation with the original thread. In hindsight it may have been better to have the GFCI in the main panel where it is connected to the neutral and have a shut off near the spa. I think the end result is the same.

I don't claim to be an expert. Just looking for some good information that doesn't seem to be available from local electricians, spa people or the maufacturers of spa panels.

Celtic · 09-21-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

Wouldn't it have made more sense to point out what the four plus things are rather than just the criticism?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to not try and BS a group of electricians and electrical contractors with your erroneous first posting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

I don't claim to be an expert.

What you wrote in your profile seems to indicate otherwise:

Quote:

What is your electrical related field/trade:
home remodel & spa installation

...or does spa installation mean just the one you put in at your own house?

Quote:

Originally Posted by noproron

I should have also added that 2/1 #6 wire

NolaTigaBait · 09-21-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

I don't claim to be an expert. Just looking for some good information that doesn't seem to be available from local electricians, spa people or the maufacturers of spa panels.

Ya kinda just did.