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Old 08-15-2010, 06:37 PM   #1
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Default CFL vs metal halide vs hps

Whats the best way to compare these three within a similar fixture, say a wall pack. I have a customer who basically says I am a idiot for choosing anything other than cfl for any application and that basically hps or metal halide are totally obsolete. I look at lumens per watt, but I guess it must be more complicated than that. Bulb life, fixture spacing, etc. Are there any good websites or resources that will compare these? He loves those dreadful Lights of America fixtures they sell at Home Depot. I figure that if CFL was the way to go in all applications, we'd all be putting them in mall parking lots. I like seperately ballasted cfl in some situations, but don't see where they can totally take the place of the other two. I have looked at some of the higher end LED parking lot fixtures and at 2 grand a pop and long lead times to get them its a tough sell.

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Old 08-15-2010, 08:23 PM   #2
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What size and height are you looking for?

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Old 08-15-2010, 08:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
say a wall pack.
I say the ultimate wall pack. 85 lumens per watt with a five year warranty. Around $350.00. HPS is good for roadway lighting. Pulse start metal halide is a fine light, but in the first five years of this LED flood, the MH will go through at least two lamps and depending on usage/location maybe a ballast or two.
http://www.electraled.com/pdfs/el_OHtechspecs.pdf
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Last edited by The Lightman; 08-15-2010 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:47 PM   #4
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Metal halide decays significantly more than CFL or HPS

HPS has mediocre color rendition.

For a warehouse high bay fixture, you have enough space to use a larger fluorescent fixture, but for a small source lighting like parking lot light that must endure wind gust, I don't know if there is a CFL drop in that is satisfactory.

Some local transit light terminals did a screw-in daylight CFL retrofit for what looks like fixtures that originally housed HID and not surprisingly light level is way low.

LEDs and CFLs are both temperature sensitive. HIDs are not.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:20 PM   #5
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I guess I am probably more concerned with security and parking lot lighting in this case. I guess it comes down to light output per watt. I think for small areas where low cost is the primary issue, cfl is good. I think though you need more cfl fixtures to light the same area as fewer hid. In the end, I'm not so sure they are more efficient. I just don't know how to prove it. I don't think they win on bulb life.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:11 PM   #6
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IMO for your application, you're throwing your money away using anything but metal halide. CFLs don't last and HPS has the worst color of any of them.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:10 AM   #7
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You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time.

Fluorescent technology is best used in applications where they are on for 12+ hours, so wall packs qualify. However, you do want to buy a fixture built for CFL's with a warranty. I see wall packs with (2) 42 W CFL's that work well for most applications up to 250W. If one lamp fails, you still have some light, but I do think you will be replacing lamps more often.

is it a better deal? You really have to figure out your savings on electricity compared to the additional cost of labor for lamp change outs to truly know.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighting Retro View Post
You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time.

System efficacy is not great with CFLs. Usually in 60-70 lm/W range. Of all those, HPS offers the best maintained lm/W. Watt for watt, HPS has the best output, and CFLs and MHs are similar, depending on their actual wattage. HPS offers the best light maintenance over life and temperature.

MH loses output considerably with age, but not with temperature.

CFL significantly loses output if they get too hot, which is not unlikely in an enclosed fixture.


Quote:
I see wall packs with (2) 42 W CFL's that work well for most applications up to 250W. If one lamp fails, you still have some light.
Not necessarily. You need to include parallel independent operation into luminaire specifications if that is required. ICF-2S42 from Advance is a fairly common brand name ballast for 42W CFLs, but it's series wired, so if one goes out both goes out.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:29 AM   #9
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Default Landfill issues with Fluorescent

I stumbled upon this article
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=72133

We are outlawing incandescent because of energy waste, and replacing with mercury and phosphor going into the water supply.
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Old 10-01-2010, 01:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightsRus View Post
I stumbled upon this article
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=72133

We are outlawing incandescent because of energy waste, and replacing with mercury and phosphor going into the water supply.
This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.

If you're in Vancouver, BC, its true CFLs have higher lifetime mercury emissions than incandescent because the power is sourced from hydroelectric, but if you're in Cleveland OH where majority of power is from coal fired plants, most of mercury comes from smokestacks at the power plants.

Overall, mercury emissions is reduced even if we assume fluorescent lamp mercury is totally released into the environment when we consider the reduction in smokestack mercury emission from not having to generate the kWh difference between incandescent and fluorescent. The reduction from mercury emissions over the life of lamps from energy saved is many times that of the mercury in the lamps.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: CFL vs metal halide vs hps

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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.
There was NO mention of LEDs in this posting.
I live on this planet and have concerns about the entire CFL thing.

Quote:
If you're in Vancouver, BC, its true CFLs have higher lifetime mercury emissions than incandescent because the power is sourced from hydroelectric, but if you're in Cleveland OH where majority of power is from coal fired plants, most of mercury comes from smokestacks at the power plants.

Overall, mercury emissions is reduced even if we assume fluorescent lamp mercury is totally released into the environment when we consider the reduction in smokestack mercury emission from not having to generate the kWh difference between incandescent and fluorescent. The reduction from mercury emissions over the life of lamps from energy saved is many times that of the mercury in the lamps.
The issue of airborne mercury in the news clip was when the lamps are broken, NOT during ordinary use. My posting had to do with disposal of these CFLs. We opened the door to millions of imported CFLs and will never, ever control the actual chemical content. We will wait for some catastrophe before we discover some imported poisonous compound snuck into a CFL.

You seem to be on a different plane than most, how about replying to the actual issues raised in the article, and in my post; that will be good.

After seeing lots of your replies, it is obvious that you will twist a subject, or change it entirely, just so you can have a debate. It does create a grin, thank you.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:16 PM   #12
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Default Lights

I'm partial to these guys http://www.everlastlight.com/

They have alot of info on site as well to make a decision
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.
And what is it that you sell?
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Old 10-02-2010, 03:25 PM   #14
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I don't sell anything particular. I like alot of things. I like Arlington Stuff, Raco, Dottie, Flir thermometers, Scotchkote, lenox, Stabiloy, RAB, Ruud, etc...

Your not one of those paranoid, delusional, old codgers who thinks everyone is out to get them or sell them something are you?

Cletis

I do have some nice KVAR products I can recommend if you wish.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: CFL vs metal halide vs hps

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I'm partial to these guys http://www.everlastlight.com/

They have alot of info on site as well to make a decision
Thanks for that site, Cletis.

It does have a lot of good info. They are making their IES files available on the site, and those have ITL test numbers as well.

They say the outdoor lighting has an integrated heat sink system, which I can confirm is essential with the post-top acorn fixtures. An Induction retrofit kit is not possible without addressing the heat, so that's something for all to be aware of.

The lumen maintenance is stated as 70% at 100,000 hours. That may be a stretch because it's unlikely they have real data that goes back that far. But they're all doing that.

Last edited by LightsRus; 10-02-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Landfill issues with Fluorescent

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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
This coming from LED sales guy. Not surprising.
That pesky sales guy stumbled onto this site http://www.epa.gov/epawaste/hazard/w...amps/index.htm quite by accident. Really.

(By the way - Electric_Light - what do you sell?)
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:36 PM   #17
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4 years ago I put up a 65W CFL d-to-d light at our farm to replace a 175W merc-vap. I was impressed with the light out-put and color but was skeptical of how long it would last. It has been 4 years now and I haven't touched it. It still works fine. I put up another one 2 months ago on the other side of the barn lot and expected a noticeable difference in brightness between the two. You can see them both at the same time and they look equal in brightness and color. They are both cheap $35.00 fixtures.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:42 AM   #18
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Default Re: CFL vs metal halide vs hps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighting Retro View Post
You will have a tough time finding CFL's that will last as long as the HID's. The CRI is higher and looks nicer though, and of course uses less juice. I recently replaced a 100W MH security light with a 59W CFL that was bowl shaped, and surprisingly the light looked much better via CFL. I'm sure the 100W HID had depreciated greatly over time.
I found data from a few places to compile a graph.


I am sure some of this is manufacturer dependent, so please offer corrections if you have additional data.
This shows fluorescent may be the better lumen maintenance.

Many applications of the HPS will be in accordance with IESNA RP-8 which addresses numerous life governing mechanisms, such as natural lamp aging, dirt build up in different locations (commercial, residential, industrial, etc.). In RP-8 this is accompanied with recommendation of how much to oversize a new installation. They build the depreciation in on the front side.

With exception of Ceramalux, typical HID drops more than 10% in first 10K hours, and typically isn't usable past 20K hours.
A typical LED design may diminish to 70% in 50K hours, and most Induction lights claim 70% at 60K hours.

Last edited by LightsRus; 10-03-2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: typo, added CFL, Ceramalux graph and note
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Old 10-03-2010, 04:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightsRus View Post
I found data from a few places to compile a graph.


I am sure some of this is manufacturer dependent, so please offer corrections if you have additional data.
This shows fluorescent may be the better lumen maintenance.

Many applications of the HPS will be in accordance with IESNA RP-8 which addresses numerous life governing mechanisms, such as natural lamp aging, dirt build up in different locations (commercial, residential, industrial, etc.). In RP-8 this is accompanied with recommendation of how much to oversize a new installation. They build the depreciation in on the front side.

With exception of Ceramalux, typical HID drops more than 10% in first 10K hours, and typically isn't usable past 20K hours.
A typical LED design may diminish to 70% in 50K hours, and most Induction lights claim 70% at 60K hours.
When you compare brand name specific item against others, you're either using worst possible for the other category or assume they're all the same.

I don't know of any current fluorescent that loses 20% in 22,000 hours. The now dominant RE80 T8s (RE70 are going to be outlawed in 2012, since they don't meet DOE minimum efficacy), the loss is less than 10% over lifetime, but often 5-6% and life is anywhere from 24,000 to 46,000 hours depending on ballast type and on-time per power-cycle.
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Old 10-03-2010, 04:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: CFL vs metal halide vs hps

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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
When you compare brand name specific item against others, you're either using worst possible for the other category or assume they're all the same.

I don't know of any current fluorescent that loses 20% in 22,000 hours. The now dominant RE80 T8s (RE70 are going to be outlawed in 2012, since they don't meet DOE minimum efficacy), the loss is less than 10% over lifetime, but often 5-6% and life is anywhere from 24,000 to 46,000 hours depending on ballast type and on-time per power-cycle.
Your assessment may be correct, or not, depending......
This type of data is subject wide variance, as follows: The IESNA LM-40-01 (Approved Method for Life Testing of Fluorescent Lamps) uses a standard operating cycle of 3 hours on, 20 minutes off. Manufacturer presented data will likely use 12-hours per start.

Fluorescent wasn't mentioned in the topic of this thread, but I threw it in for reference. Not to down-play standard fluorescent, I would like to see more on CFL comparisons from those more knowledgeable, since CFL will soon flood our space.

BTW - the LRC rates the RE80 at 24,000 hours. Maybe you are using best-case data also?


Last edited by LightsRus; 10-03-2010 at 04:53 PM. Reason: added BTW
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