Induction lighting to replace HID - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Lighting Retro · 08-11-2009, 07:18 PM

I've got an interesting project I wanted to share with you guys, as I'm pretty impressed with the technology I'm seeing out there. We get calls every week now on a new company in China selling LED's and the American counterparts hocking them. Everything from HID replacements to Fluorescent Tube replacements.

Be careful, as there are tons of issues with that product out there. We won't put in anything that isn't backed by the manufacturer, so that eliminates most LED products right away. It's coming, but by all accounts, most of the product is not mature enough yet to be reliable on a large scale or in challenging environments.

We are dealing with a manufacturing facility that has around 300+ 250W HID fixtures mounted in a wash down sanitary environment. The lamps are horizontal, and the fixture is a Rig a Light, and it looks similar in nature to a gas station canopy light. All fixtures are sealed to the ceiling to prevent any moisture from getting on top of them to spur bacteria growth. (Food manufacturing)

info on induction

We are faced with either removing the entire fixture for this client, scraping the old sealant off of the stainless steel ceiling, replace the fixture with an energy efficient option, reseal around every fixture, etc. OR

we can retrofit them.

We were approached by a company that manufactures and backs induction lighting. They will take that fixture (Bought on their own dime), create a retrofit kit for it with an induction system, and re-UL certify the fixture against failure.

Why induction? Much higher CRI, and not as sensitive to cold. A 250 W HID lamp uses close to 290Watts with ballast, and the comparable induction will run about 120W. Running 24/6, that is a massive savings. They don't have to remove the fixtures. They remain in place, and we will be able to purchase retro kits to make a speedy upgrade. (Less downtime since they operate such long hours) Induction is also backed to last 100,000 thousand hours compared to the standard horizontal HID mount 10,000, so the customer saves big time on relamping cycles.

I'll be placing samples in a few weeks in the environment, and am looking forward to seeing results first hand. I'll grab pictures.

Has anyone dealt with induction yet? It's a bit pricey, but for 100k hours of operation, it's worth a look. LED in white only lasts about 50,000 hours, so it's hard to make a business case for it yet. By the way, it's Fulham backing the product.

they also make induction wallpacks, some high bay stuff I don't care for yet, and it appears that CFL replacements are on the way.

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighting Retro

so that eliminates most LED products right away. It's coming, but by all accounts, most of the product is not mature enough yet to be reliable on a large scale

It will be fun to find out, we have been contracted to replace 7000+ fluorescent fixtures with LED fixtures in a 10 story office building.

Only time will tell how this works out.

Lighting Retro · 08-11-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

It will be fun to find out, we have been contracted to replace 7000+ fluorescent fixtures with LED fixtures in a 10 story office building.

Only time will tell how this works out.

Are they 2x4 troffers with LED tubes? I'd be curious if they are using indirect light and how many tubes if so. The reflector kits do no good with LED, as the LED's are only on one side of the tubes and you can't take advantage of the 360 degree light given off of fluorescent tubes. Also be curious to know wattage on those. We've seen so little wattage difference, and life on better T8 lamps of 42,000 hours, that is makes no sense to go LED.

Wow, I'm really surprised by that. Someone is "going green" to the nth degree. Maybe there is an incentive in place. Hope it goes well, but love to hear more about it. That's a sweet project.

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighting Retro

Are they 2x4 troffers with LED tubes? I'd be curious if they are using indirect light and how many tubes if so. The reflector kits do no good with LED, as the LED's are only on one side of the tubes and you can't take advantage of the 360 degree light given off of fluorescent tubes. Also be curious to know wattage on those. We've seen so little wattage difference, and life on better T8 lamps of 42,000 hours, that is makes no sense to go LED.

Wow, I'm really surprised by that. Someone is "going green" to the nth degree. Maybe there is an incentive in place. Hope it goes well, but love to hear more about it. That's a sweet project.

I do not know all the details, I had to swing by the site the other day and add a dimmer to the one office that had already been converted for customer evaluation.

The office had four 2' x 2' fluorescents that where entirely removed and trashed, four 2' x 2' LED drop ins where put in there place. most of the 2' x 2' is just metal, with a 10" or 12" square milk white lenses in the center.

They are very bright, brighter then the lights they replaced that was why I was sent to install the dimmer. The fixture had a set of 0 to 10 volt terminals that can be connected to a lutron dimmer wired class 2.

I have no idea how this will turn out, the fixtures look expensive and have a mighty impressive heat sink / cooling fins on the back which suggest to me that they waste power.

Quote:

That's a sweet project.

It is, I am glad the boss was able to land it, but I doubt I will be involved in it.

Black4Truck · 08-11-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

It is, I am glad the boss was able to land it, but I doubt I will be involved in it.

Bob.. how big is your shop?? That is a

load of fixtures to retrofit

What type of jobs are usually assigned to you?

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black4Truck

Bob.. how big is your shop?? That is a

load of fixtures to retrofit

Just to be clear it's not my shop, I am just a worker.

But the company has at least a couple hundred employees and offices in MA, RI and CT.

The construction division builds retail large and small, hotels, light industrial, schools, etc.

Quote:

What type of jobs are usually assigned to you?

I am in the 'special projects' division and that can range from the most basic quick repairs to the very unusual. Right now I am installing 800 and 400 amp voltage regulators. It would be easy if not for the fact there is no space, the grocery store is open for business and I can only shut the power down for short periods of time. In a couple of weeks I will be running a grid tied photo voltaic system that I had a major hand in designing. This will be my third PV install for them.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Peter D · 08-11-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

I am in the 'special projects' division and that can range from the most basic quick repairs to the very unusual. Right now I am installing 800 and 400 amp voltage regulators. It would be easy if not for the fact there is no space, the grocery store is open for business and I can only shut the power down for short periods of time. In a couple of weeks I will be running a grid tied photo voltaic system that I had a major hand in designing. This will be my third PV install for them.

Black4Truck · 08-11-2009, 08:44 PM

That sounds like the "swat team" of the electrical field.

It is good that you will never be bored and that brain has to be constantly crunching the numbers to make the job work.

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black4Truck

It is good that you will never be bored and that brain has to be constantly crunching the numbers to make the job work.

Sometimes it feels like the brain is what is being crunched.

I just had to buy these two books to help me out with some of the PV design work.

But it can be interesting.

Lighting Retro · 08-11-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

Sometimes it feels like the brain is what is being crunched.

I just had to buy these two books to help me out with some of the PV design work.

But it can be interesting.

Good stuff. We see going there eventually, but have not pursued as of yet. The LED can put out some great light, but they do generate some heat for sure.

The fins you see on the back are a good thing. LED's need to be designed as a system in order to dissipate the heat. It's part of the reason retrofitting existing fixtures with LED is not a great idea with most products. It simply is not designed for it, and they prematurely fail. Good to hear someone taking the plunge for 7,000 of them. Love to hear how that one goes.

Black4Truck · 08-11-2009, 08:55 PM

You just ruined the myth that Algebra is never used in the real world and is only there to make HS freshman year miserable

Lighting Retro · 08-11-2009, 08:56 PM

I'm curious to know if the guys who provide the fixtures are the makers of EPAD LED. They are supposed to have some great stuff coming, but we haven't had the right application yet to try it out.

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black4Truck

You just ruined the myth that Algebra is never used in the real world and is only there to make HS freshman year miserable

I made it to 45 years old without seeming to need it, suddenly that changed.

Peter D · 08-12-2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

I made it to 45 years old without seeming to need it, suddenly that changed.

Wow, you're an old geezer.

Jmy · 08-13-2009, 11:52 AM

Hello,
Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.

Lighting Retro · 08-13-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmy

Hello,
Definitely be leary of these Asian LED manufacturers.
Have you consider US LED manufacturers such as Gardco and Beta for exterior units? - the quality is outstanding and their LED rated life is 100,000 hours. Some are even rated at 150,000 hours.
Pricier because it is US made, but a reputable manufacturer.
Is the lamp included in with your induction retrofit? Although the life is long, the lamp cost is over $300. I proposed using an induction for replacement of a 150W metal halide and found with the cost of the fixtures and lamp, the payback was not good. Your retrofit may be a better deal. Just make sure the whole fixture is UL listed and not just the retrofit kit.

Yes, the whole fixture will be re UL listed. Very important indeed.

On the LED's, LED's last 100k hours if they are in their natural color. When they are treated to put out white light they typically last 50k hours. They may go longer, but the light output is supposed to diminish. None of the reputable LED companies out there are claiming 100k hours from what I have seen, much less 150k hours.

We've typically seen the induction come in at less than LED btw, so it's been hard to justify the price difference. However, I was just informed by our induction company that even though the lamps last 100k plus hours, the ballast/generator is probably going to last 50k. Even our rep at Fulham was unaware of that, so there's a nugget for you.

Eco Parking Lights · 12-02-2009, 03:48 AM

This is my first time visiting Electrician Talk. Our company manufactures Induction and LED fixtures area and parking applications. We compare each every day for our customers and help them make informed decisions.

I am really interested in many of the well thought comments on this site.

We have stanardized on North American technologies for our lamps and ballasts in both Induction and LED. Most of the time we are using Sylvania as their longevity and real life application is strong for both Induction and LED. All of our products using the Sylvania Systems carry a 5 year parts and LABOR warranty (backed by Sylvania and our company). Product costs in our offering for Indcution and LED range from $ 300 - $ 1,200

As a manufacturer we frequently analyze different components (many of them Asian). We continue to see problems in quality and the support very rarely pans out. The temptation is there, because of price and claims, but be ware. There are many risks, including patent infringement (especially in the induction arena).

In summary - for area lighting, most of our customers start out thinking they want LED. Most end up using Induction. We provide a great LED product using Sylvania LED's and Drivers, but the cost is usually double. We can provide the required IESNA lighting levels for most applicactions under 25' using induction. Strong light levels, High CRI and several available color temps.

In the end we suggest LED for applications over 25' (ECO LED) and Induction (ECO Parking Lights) for applications under 25'. That will change over the next 5 years as LED's standardize (optically, they rock!!).

Thanks for letting me chime in.

Steve L.

kbsparky · 12-02-2009, 08:05 AM

I am always intrigued by some of the developments in new technologies and lighting efficiency.

We are designing the lighting for a new warehouse, and were considering using the linear T5 fluorescents, with motion sensors to limit energy consumption.

Are the induction lights suitable for this type of application? I figure that LEDs would not have a problem with several on/off operations throughout the day, and acknowledge that this may shorten the lamp life of the T5s somewhat.

The main problem here is initial cost, and since many companies are operating on a tight budget, convincing them to bear higher up front costs can be a real issue in today's economic climate. It was a struggle to even get them to agree to the motion sensor idea so you can ascertain what I'm dealing with here.

Eco Parking Lights · 12-02-2009, 08:58 AM

There are some Warehouse applications where Induction Fixtures are starting to be utilized. We get this question quite frequently.

An induction lamp is a flourescent lamp (actually a T17) and its efficiency is very similiar to that of the T5's and T8's. The difference, as you may know is that there are no wear points associated with the lamp (no electrodes or filaments) with induction. That is why we see such a strong need for them in the parking industry, especially garages where the ramps actually move quite a bit through vibration. This has a tendancy to unseat the T8/T5's, not to mention that the fixtures take a heck of a beating.

In Warehouse applications, you really must have the correct owner to consider Induction or LED. Some factors that must play: It must be extremely difficult or expensive to get to the fixtures to change the lamps, possibly a safety hazard, and a customer that cares about the environmental impact of the lamp changes. Some of these are intangible benefits that are difficult to value.

Another consideration (our company is big on getting this across early in the decision making process). The new induction lamps and LED should provide a cleaner brighter white light, but when considering the amount of light required at the floor or on the product in a Warehouse you may struggle to get the required footcandles. Induction (using Sylvania or Phillips) technology tops out at 165 Watts. That is a big differnce from the typical 400 watt or 1000 watt lamps utilized in most Warehouse applications. That being said, there are many applications where the 150/165 watt induction will replace the 400 watt MH just fine.

In the end, it usally comes down to payback and at $ 350 - $ 600 per Induction fixture, that payback is usually to long, especially on a retrofit application where you are removing the existing fixture - But if you have the correct customer and application Induction rocks, I know for a fact that when applied properly the Sylvania Induction (Icetron) systems can go the distance of 100,000 hours with minimal depreciation and yes they can be turned on/off with motion sensors. Sylvania recommends 15 minute on/off time, but they can also be quickly cycled in emergencies.

Thanks for listening!!

Lighting Retro · 12-02-2009, 10:44 AM

Good stuff, thanks.