Philips EnduraLED 48"T8 apparently 32% less efficient than mercury gas technology - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Electric_Light · 04-10-2012, 02:24 AM

Available in 11W 825lm and 22W 1650lm.. 40,000 hrs/85% maintenance(over how many hrs, I don't know)

Can't be used with shunted instant-start sockets. It's wired like a glow-starter type fluorescent lamp with a jumper in place of the glow starter. No idea why it needs a shunt going from one end to the other.

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/..._End_Users.pdf

With the starting efficacy only being 75LPW and mean of only 64LPW, there is much to be desired when two lamp T8 can get 92new/90mean system LPW. Mean efficacy is 30% less than the modern T8 and that's simply unacceptable. Initial lumen is only good for the wow effect for sales demo.

Premium T8
3100new/2915 rated mean
2 lamps at 77% drive reduced output
AC 277v 48W
4490/48 = 93.5 sustained LPW, 99.5 LPW new

(2915mean lamp lumen x 2 lamps x 77% ballast output)=4490lm. 4490/48 watt input yields 93.5 lumens per watt.

LED 1400 lm mean (1650 x 85% maintenance)
4490lm/1400lm =3.21 lamps
so 1400 x 3 lamps = 4200 lm
6.5% reduction in output
22W x 3 = 66W 37.5% increase in power use.
32% reduction in efficacy

1400 mean lumen x 3 lamps = 4200 lm. 4200 / 66W lumen yields 63.4 lumens per watt.

63.4/93.5 = 0.678
(1-0.678) x 100 = 67.8... so, the LED setup is the 68% the efficiency of fluorescent system, which can also be stated as 32% less efficient.

Not sure what they're using in the sell sheet, but the above calculation is based on GE UltraMax-L 2 lamp and Philips F32T8/ADV835

Edrick · 04-10-2012, 02:26 AM

I started reading this then said hmm why does this sound like a post from that guy who hates LED. Sure enough...

Although I am curious as to how well these works as one of my clients is getting a swap out done to these.

Electric_Light · 04-10-2012, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edrick

I started reading this then said hmm why does this sound like a post from that guy who hates LED. Sure enough...

Although I am curious as to how well these works as one of my clients is getting a swap out done to these.

Philips make both LED and fluorescent, so there's no more conflict of interest than comparing their HIDs to fluorescent.

All the numbers are from catalog. The exception is that they didn't include value for the T8 system or if they actually tried to match output lumen.

Here I combined high lumen F32T8 in a two lamp setup against three 48" T8 shaped LED tubes, so that the final mean output by the book is within 10%.

BBQ · 04-10-2012, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric_Light

Philips make both LED and fluorescent, so there's no more conflict of interest

But who do you work for?

erics37 · 04-10-2012, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBQ

But who do you work for?

Sylvania

Electric_Light · 04-10-2012, 05:04 PM

I didn't name Sylvania products once in the comparison.

There's minimal difference in performance between OSI/GE/Philips fluorescent lamps anyways

Cletis · 04-10-2012, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric_Light

I didn't name Sylvania products once in the comparison.

There's minimal difference in performance between OSI/GE/Philips fluorescent lamps anyways

Those lamps are all made in same factory in Shanghi anyway

mbednarik · 04-10-2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric_Light

Available in 11W 825lm and 22W 1650lm.. 40,000 hrs/85% maintenance(over how many hrs, I don't know)

Can't be used with shunted instant-start sockets. It's wired like a glow-starter type fluorescent lamp with a jumper in place of the glow starter. No idea why it needs a shunt going from one end to the other.

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/..._End_Users.pdf

With the starting efficacy only being 75LPW and mean of only 64LPW, there is much to be desired when two lamp T8 can get 92new/90mean system LPW. Mean efficacy is 30% less than the modern T8 and that's simply unacceptable. Initial lumen is only good for the wow effect for sales demo.

Premium T8
3100new/2915 rated mean
2 lamps at 77% drive reduced output
AC 277v 48W
4490/48 = 93.5 sustained LPW, 99.5 LPW new

(2915mean lamp lumen x 2 lamps x 77% ballast output)=4490lm. 4490/48 watt input yields 93.5 lumens per watt.

LED 1400 lm mean (1650 x 85% maintenance)
4490lm/1400lm =3.21 lamps
so 1400 x 3 lamps = 4200 lm
6.5% reduction in output
22W x 3 = 66W 37.5% increase in power use.
32% reduction in efficacy

1400 mean lumen x 3 lamps = 4200 lm. 4200 / 66W lumen yields 63.4 lumens per watt.

63.4/93.5 = 0.678
(1-0.678) x 100 = 67.8... so, the LED setup is the 68% the efficiency of fluorescent system, which can also be stated as 32% less efficient.

Not sure what they're using in the sell sheet, but the above calculation is based on GE UltraMax-L 2 lamp and Philips F32T8/ADV835

Where do you get 48 watts? Wouldn't the input be 64 plus ballast loss?

Cletis · 04-10-2012, 11:29 PM

Maybe 2-28 watt bulbs driven at 0.77 = 48 watts (ballast loss not included)

Electric_Light · 04-15-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbednarik

Where do you get 48 watts? Wouldn't the input be 64 plus ballast loss?

The ballast specs.

T8 lamp book specs are based on 60Hz operation. When they're operated at 50KHz like electronic ballasts do, the lamp itself becomes 10% more efficient.

So, it only takes 29W to produce catalog value. Now, catalog value assumes lamps are operated to provide 100% of rated output. If they're actually driven at 32W each, they actually produce 100% output...

Standard T12 magnetic ballasts, now out of production typically only came in one type. 95% rated output.

Commercially available T8 ballasts typically don't drive them to produce 100% output. Standard ones drive them at 87%. Low output ones (like the one I used above) drive them at 77% with corresponding reduction power usage.

k_buz · 04-15-2012, 08:16 AM

At over $65 bucks a lamp, I can't believe this is going to be an easy sell.

mbednarik · 04-15-2012, 10:09 AM

i installed 4 of these. The main thing i did not like about them besides the cost was the head sink on the back side of the lamp. It would effect the photometrics of fixtures.

Dnkldorf · 04-16-2012, 04:07 PM

never mind..............

Electric_Light · 04-16-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbednarik

i installed 4 of these. The main thing i did not like about them besides the cost was the head sink on the back side of the lamp. It would effect the photometrics of fixtures.

Who's idea was it?

As long as it's legal, customer's request trumps everything.

If you're selling cars and someone is determined to buy a V10 truck against your personal opinion, why bother persuading them into something inferior?

gesparky221 · 04-20-2012, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

Those lamps are all made in same factory in Shanghi anyway

Just so you know I work in GE's main T8 lamp plant for worldwide production here in Ohio! We actually ship T8 lamps all over the world from here.

Cletis · 04-20-2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gesparky221

Just so you know I work in GE's main T8 lamp plant for worldwide production here in Ohio! We actually ship T8 lamps all over the world from here.

Do you inject the mercury and phosphors at the plant in ohio? How is it living in ohio anyhow? I've heard good things...

Electric_Light · 04-22-2012, 12:55 AM

I love factory tours.

gesparky221 · 04-22-2012, 04:43 PM

Our plant takes the clear tube and assemble it, adding phosphor, mercury, making the mount, that holds the lead wires and lamp cathode add gas, and test each lamp. It is highly automated. We have 4 main lines, an older T12 line which runs 6000 lamps per hour, and 3 T8 lines that run between 7000-8000 lamps per hour. Our shop runs 24/7. Living in Ohio is ok most of the time. I have worked at this plant for 27 years. We just added a new line to our plant, which was moved from Canada to our location.

Big John · 04-22-2012, 04:54 PM

How on earth do y'all add the mercury? Is there a mercury pumping system? That's gotta be nuts.

-John