Sacramento County Service Ground/Bond - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

electrictim510 · 03-20-2011, 09:42 PM

I'm new to Sacramento, CA (mostly worked in the S.F. Bay Area) and I am doing a couple services next week. Anyone know the local ground/bond methods?

In the bay area they want water/gas/rod, but it looks like Sac locally only wants water/rod. The service I am changing out has an existing ufer (accessible) and incoming water, both with individual ground runs. This looks to be fine, but I'm not finding any solid info until I talk to an inspector tomorrow, just trying to get a head start.

erics37 · 03-20-2011, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

In the bay area they want water/gas/rod...

They want gas pipe as a grounding electrode?

That's an NEC violation and a bad idea to boot

Salvatoreg02 · 03-20-2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erics37

They want gas pipe as a grounding electrode?

That's an NEC violation and a bad idea to boot

They probably want it bonded!!

electrictim510 · 03-20-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erics37

They want gas pipe as a grounding electrode?

That's an NEC violation and a bad idea to boot

They want the gas bonded in the Bay Area, Weird I know, but thats what they ask for. Usually we run a ground to the nearest water and then use a jumper at the water heater to catch hot and gas off of the cold.

electrictim510 · 03-21-2011, 07:20 PM

Well I found out they basically want it the same as the Bay Area except they want a #4 to the ufer regardless of if it is a 100 or 200 amp service.

erics37 · 03-21-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

They want the gas bonded in the Bay Area, Weird I know, but thats what they ask for. Usually we run a ground to the nearest water and then use a jumper at the water heater to catch hot and gas off of the cold.

Okay that makes more sense. Gas pipe usually needs to be bonded anyway, but often the EGC for whatever equipment is hooked up to it will suffice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

Well I found out they basically want it the same as the Bay Area except they want a #4 to the ufer regardless of if it is a 100 or 200 amp service.

I think #4 is the max required size for a GEC to a CCE.

Rockyd · 03-21-2011, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

I'm new to Sacramento, CA (mostly worked in the S.F. Bay Area) and I am doing a couple services next week. Anyone know the local ground/bond methods?

In the bay area they want water/gas/rod, but it looks like Sac locally only wants water/rod. The service I am changing out has an existing ufer (accessible) and incoming water, both with individual ground runs. This looks to be fine, but I'm not finding any solid info until I talk to an inspector tomorrow, just trying to get a head start.

I'm wanting to hear about the gas? Never heard of anything like that other than a code violation!

Edit - not a putdown...curious as to what their logic is.....

HARRY304E · 03-21-2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

I'm new to Sacramento, CA (mostly worked in the S.F. Bay Area) and I am doing a couple services next week. Anyone know the local ground/bond methods?

In the bay area they want water/gas/rod, but it looks like Sac locally only wants water/rod. The service I am changing out has an existing ufer (accessible) and incoming water, both with individual ground runs. This looks to be fine, but I'm not finding any solid info until I talk to an inspector tomorrow, just trying to get a head start.

2011NEC

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural

Steel.

(B) Other Metal Piping.

If installed in, or attached to, a

building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including

gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be

bonded to the service equipment enclosure; the grounded

conductor at the service; the grounding electrode conductor,
if of sufficient size; or to one or more grounding electrodes
used. The bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s) shall be
sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the
circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The
equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely
to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the
bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding
jumper(s) shall be accessible.

Informational Note No. 1: Bonding all piping and metal

air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.

Informational Note No. 2: Additional information for gas
piping systems can be found in Section 7.13 of NFPA 54-

2009, National Fuel Gas Code.

electrictim510 · 03-22-2011, 12:10 AM

I was just wondering what the local jurisdiction wanted because from city to city out here they require different bonding requirements.

TOOL_5150 · 03-22-2011, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictim510

They want the gas bonded in the Bay Area, Weird I know, but thats what they ask for. Usually we run a ground to the nearest water and then use a jumper at the water heater to catch hot and gas off of the cold.

Which I see it as assinine... The gas pipe is bonded at every appliance that has a cord

~Matt

Rockyd · 03-22-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOOL_5150

Which I see it as assinine... The gas pipe is bonded at every appliance that has a cord

~Matt

Matt,

What code cycle are they using that they think it is okay to bond to the gas line? The reason I'm asking is the the paths of the 05, o8, and 11 are trying to move people of the industry away from using gas as an electrode.

Going all the way back to the 05 "Changes to the NEC 2005" book by Mike Holt, here is his commentary on the subject of 250.52(B)(1)

- (B) Electrodes Not Permitted.
- (1) Underground Metal Gas piping system.Underground metal gas piping systems and structures cannot be used as a grounding electrode.
(FPN)sEE 250.104(B) for the bonding requirements for gas piping.

Author's comment (Mike Holt) According to 250.104(B) metal gas piping that is likely to become energized must be bonded to the servicew equipment enclosure, the grounded (neutral) servide conductor, or hee grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode conductor where the grounding electrode conductor is of sufficient size [250.104(B). The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping can serve as the bonding means. So effectively, this means that no no action is actually required by the electrical installer!

Let me tell you what 2008 has -

(B) Not Permitted for Use as Grounding Electrodes.
The folowing systems and materials shall not not be used as grounding electrodes:
(1) Metal underground gas piping systems
(2) Aluminum

(FPN) See 250.104(B) for bonding requirements of gas piping.

In the 2011, at 250.104(B) there is an Informational note No.2 Additional information for gas piping systems can be found in Section 7.13 of NFPA 54-2009 National Fuel Gas Code.

So I see even the NEC is working hard to stop the dangerous practice of mixxing gas and electric.Makes me wonder where California thinks they're headed legislatively, so that inspectors can go forward, rather than backwards in the industry!

TOOL_5150 · 03-22-2011, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockyd

Matt,

What code cycle are they using that they think it is okay to bond to the gas line? The reason I'm asking is the the paths of the 05, o8, and 11 are trying to move people of the industry away from using gas as an electrode.

Going all the way back to the 05 "Changes to the NEC 2005" book by Mike Holt, here is his commentary on the subject of 250.52(B)(1)

- (B) Electrodes Not Permitted.
- (1) Underground Metal Gas piping system.Underground metal gas piping systems and structures cannot be used as a grounding electrode.
(FPN)sEE 250.104(B) for the bonding requirements for gas piping.

Author's comment (Mike Holt) According to 250.104(B) metal gas piping that is likely to become energized must be bonded to the servicew equipment enclosure, the grounded (neutral) servide conductor, or hee grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode conductor where the grounding electrode conductor is of sufficient size [250.104(B). The equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping can serve as the bonding means. So effectively, this means that no no action is actually required by the electrical installer!

Let me tell you what 2008 has -

(B) Not Permitted for Use as Grounding Electrodes.
The folowing systems and materials shall not not be used as grounding electrodes:
(1) Metal underground gas piping systems
(2) Aluminum

(FPN) See 250.104(B) for bonding requirements of gas piping.

In the 2011, at 250.104(B) there is an Informational note No.2 Additional information for gas piping systems can be found in Section 7.13 of NFPA 54-2009 National Fuel Gas Code.

So I see even the NEC is working hard to stop the dangerous practice of mixxing gas and electric.Makes me wonder where California thinks they're headed legislatively, so that inspectors can go forward, rather than backwards in the industry!

You got me wrong - we dont / cant use it as an electrode, BUT we do bond it... usually at the W/H Cold, hot and gas [not directly connected to the GES]. SF requires everything bonded through the GES. From panel, to rod, to gas and ending at water.

~Matt

Rockyd · 03-22-2011, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOOL_5150

You got me wrong - we dont / cant use it as an electrode, BUT we do bond it... usually at the W/H Cold, hot and gas [not directly connected to the GES]. SF requires everything bonded through the GES. From panel, to rod, to gas and ending at water.

~Matt

It's cool. Just curious as to how other places interpret things. Here in Alaska, if it has a gound wire going to it with the cord, romex, flex, then that covers the "likely to be energized part". Thanks for the information.

Edit - We have to pull ground wire everywhere in pipe in Anchorage, we go "over the top" on that end. Then again our ground moves a lot up here because of frost, earthquakes, etc. so it's not such a bad thing.

TOOL_5150 · 03-22-2011, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockyd

Edit - We have to pull ground wire everywhere in pipe in Anchorage, we go "over the top" on that end. Then again our ground moves a lot up here because of frost, earthquakes, etc. so it's not such a bad thing.

I do that same practice as well, even though it isnt mandatory.

~Matt

Salvatoreg02 · 03-23-2011, 08:54 AM

It's an interesting conversation but no matter how you slice it, the gas pipe will always be bonded. Done intentionally or not.

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electrictim510 · 04-05-2011, 10:57 AM

Sacramento is actually pretty cool to work with. We get direct numbers to inspectors, which was unheard of in the bay area unless we were in really good with one inparticular, they post them right on the website, how cool is that.

The local utility (SMUD) is easy to deal with too; the guy who came out for the dnr for my underground service said. "I can just tape up the wires real good.. that okay with you?" Like heck yah dude that's cool! And he left the meter. So after I was done customer immediately had power and they could take their time coming back to seal up the meter.

In the bay area I always did my own dnr's (even though sometimes they would make a stink about it) because the utility woudn't always be as easy to deal with at times. Glad to see things are pretty close to the same requirements with a little more catering to us electricians...finally!