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Old 05-12-2008, 01:54 AM   #1
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Default shunt trip, fire surppression, commercial resturant

i need help in a big way , its probably a simple method to someone who has done it before . im wiring a resturant by the lake and i need to know how to connect all of the mentioned , shunt trip breaker to the fire surpression system , make up air on the venthood system , all low voltage dampers for the a/c system and every circuit below the venthood system being like 4 or 5 dedicated circuits ,it all has to shut down by one shunt trip breaker . ive always brought power to the surppression system but never went beyound that .
thank you ,
trip
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:07 AM   #2
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if all the appliances are on the same panel, shunt trip breaker the main of that panel.
if not, then indivicual shunt trip breakers for each concerned appliance using a common circuit for all of them.
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:11 AM   #3
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I've done this two different ways, depending on how many circuits need to be tripped out. In either case, the fire supression system has a normally open contact that closes when it is tripped. This in turn, sends voltage (usually 120AC) the the breakers that need to be tripped.

If there are lots of circuits to be de-energized, a dedicated panel is installed containing a main breaker with a shunt trip coil. Sometimes it's a main lug panel, and the breaker that feeds it has the shunt trip coil.

If its just a few circuits, single pole, 2 pole, and 3 pole breakers are available with shunt trip coils built into them. You need to plan ahead a bit here, because the shunt trip coil takes an additional space. For example, a single pole shunt trip breaker takes 2 spaces, and so on.

Rob

Last edited by micromind; 05-12-2008 at 02:12 AM. Reason: 4 minutes late, Nap does it the same way I do
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:49 PM   #4
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You will need a series of relays for the hood fans. We usually use a system from captiveaire that has the relays to turn off the supply fan and underhood lights and turn on the exhaust fan in case of fire.
Also, make sure the hood control system is not fed from one of the shunt tripped breakers (or out of the shunt tripped panel).
I hate seeing those shunt trips daisy chained together in a panel, but sometimes it is the only way.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:12 PM   #5
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Most often this is done with a purchased panel of relays that will kill the MUA units and also shut off the gas to the hotline. Don't you have a set of specs from the architect or engineer. This isn't something usually left up to the EC.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:20 AM   #6
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i appreciate all your replys - i have learned a thing or two - this will be the last thing i do on the job cause it will be an EXTRA - im leaning towards sub panel fed by shunt from the main then pass the micro switch through the shunt leaving the exhaust free from the sub and shunt , this seems the quickest and easiest way at this point , i have asked for specs and or a diagram for this correct me if im wrong ansel system but all i got was a small drawing of the micro switch
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Old 05-14-2008, 01:27 AM   #7
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You could go right to the source, Ansul https://www.ansul.com/en/support/support.asp
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Old 05-15-2008, 08:25 PM   #8
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Very timely. I am also getting involved in a similar situation, but maybe not as many things to shut down. I've not seen the plans for this yet but the owner insists that they do exist. The problem is that they want the bathroom and eating areas done now, but the kitchen specs are not going to get here before they finish the other areas. We've roughed in for kitchen lights and counter-top receptacles, proofer, and cooler but had to bag the rest because of lack of specs. So we told the owner that the rest will have to be surface mount because we don't know where anything else goes. It sounds like he is going to try to get one of those Ansul systems that has a cable in it to shut down the gas valve, and a microswitch for a relay for everything else. I've been around that cable system before but I thought maybe that was a thing of the past. Maybe not, though. Never used shunt trip breakers before so maybe I am still learning. Looking forward to it. Around here it is not too uncommon for people to want the man on the job to just handle things and not get too many other people involved. The inspector tells me that there will be a set of drawings or they will not approve the kitchen for opening.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:09 PM   #9
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I was partly involved with a restaurant we just completed, and the kitchen hood is a separate permit, with stamped, approved drawings. Inspections by fire marshal, EI and plumbing inspector.
Shunt trip for all electrical under hood, including lights.
Gas valves to shut off when hood is turned off.
Mechanical gas valves shut off when suppression system activated. (Nothing for the electrician)
Exhaust fan to stay on when system activated, MUA (make up air) to shut down. (Pre wired control box for this, and hood lighting)
Duct dampers for MUA (at exterior supply) to shut off when either the fan is turned off or system activated.
Fire alarm to be activated when system activated.

Ansul box has 4 micro switches. I used one to activate the fire alarm, one to connect to the MUA-exhaust/lighting controller, and one for the shunt trip.
As I recall, the duct dampers and electrical gas valves I connected to the controller.
What I had to do was spelled out very well. How was somewhat up to me.

DO NOT shunt trip the control circuit!
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Old 05-15-2008, 10:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
I was partly involved with a restaurant we just completed, and the kitchen hood is a separate permit, with stamped, approved drawings. Inspections by fire marshal, EI and plumbing inspector.
Shunt trip for all electrical under hood, including lights.
Gas valves to shut off when hood is turned off.
Mechanical gas valves shut off when suppression system activated. (Nothing for the electrician)
Exhaust fan to stay on when system activated, MUA (make up air) to shut down. (Pre wired control box for this, and hood lighting)
Duct dampers for MUA (at exterior supply) to shut off when either the fan is turned off or system activated.
Fire alarm to be activated when system activated.

Ansul box has 4 micro switches. I used one to activate the fire alarm, one to connect to the MUA-exhaust/lighting controller, and one for the shunt trip.
As I recall, the duct dampers and electrical gas valves I connected to the controller.
What I had to do was spelled out very well. How was somewhat up to me.

DO NOT shunt trip the control circuit!
That sounds like a more standard system with the mechanical redundancy for the gas line. We get more of the old Kidde style panels that I think are a Tyco subsidiary now, very easy to connect up.
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Old 05-15-2008, 10:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomkiller View Post
That sounds like a more standard system with the mechanical redundancy for the gas line. We get more of the old Kidde style panels that I think are a Tyco subsidiary now, very easy to connect up.
Actually, I think the electrical gas valve only operates under normal on-off operation, and the mechanical valve is for fire operation, but I'm not sure I remember correctly.

It was simple (if a bit time consuming) to hook up. The first one I ever did, and the fire marshal complimented me for getting everything right the first time. (And she was a stickler too.)
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
Actually, I think the electrical gas valve only operates under normal on-off operation, and the mechanical valve is for fire operation, but I'm not sure I remember correctly.

It was simple (if a bit time consuming) to hook up. The first one I ever did, and the fire marshal complimented me for getting everything right the first time. (And she was a stickler too.)
Did you have a start stop for the fan that had several other contacts on it also? I hate when you get those and try to get them to fit in their idea of a proper enclosure.
The panels we get, both the electric and mechanical shut down in an alarm condition.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:31 PM   #13
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Did you have a start stop for the fan that had several other contacts on it also? I hate when you get those and try to get them to fit in their idea of a proper enclosure.
Seemed to have plenty of room in the enclosure.
It came as a unit. MUA, exhaust, hood lights, auxiliary contacts. Ansul box w/ micro switches mounted next to it.

Kinda wish I had taken a few pics now.
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Old 05-17-2008, 04:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
Seemed to have plenty of room in the enclosure.
It came as a unit. MUA, exhaust, hood lights, auxiliary contacts. Ansul box w/ micro switches mounted next to it.

Kinda wish I had taken a few pics now.

I wish the last one I did was the same, it just made it in the box. I had just enough room to get the thing together, I had to put crimp terminals on all the wires which also made things tighter.
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:42 PM   #15
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I also have a question on shunt trip, fire supression. I was asked to install new thermostats in a popular resturant chain. Upon arrival, we were shown the master disconnect in the manager's office, where we would have to do some modification the the shunt trips, to get these thermostats to work, by bypassing the whole system. I have some serious concerns on this method, as I feel it could alter the fire supression system in place. I have not installed any thermostats, as I want to check on the compliance of a modification to their system.

This doesn't sound right to me, as I'm in the HVAC field, but I do know when to ask questions. Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwaupo View Post
I also have a question on shunt trip, fire supression. I was asked to install new thermostats in a popular resturant chain. Upon arrival, we were shown the master disconnect in the manager's office, where we would have to do some modification the the shunt trips, to get these thermostats to work, by bypassing the whole system. I have some serious concerns on this method, as I feel it could alter the fire supression system in place. I have not installed any thermostats, as I want to check on the compliance of a modification to their system.

This doesn't sound right to me, as I'm in the HVAC field, but I do know when to ask questions. Any help would be appreciated.
What do HVAC stats have to do with fire suppresion?
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:38 PM   #17
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That's what I want to know. I was told, and shown, that if I wanted to wire up these TSTATs, I would have to interupt the signal that passes through the shunt trip system. I tryed to install TSTATs, but they go throught this system first. I can run a bypass "commom" wire, but is this legal? My "Supervisor" told me that it would be "alright" to do this install, but we;re talking about a person that has "7" months expiriance in the field (lol). I don't want any "electrical code" problems with this install. This is California.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:22 PM   #18
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I am not sure why you would have to do anything concerning the shunt trip breakers. When all is well, all power is normal. Under fire suppression activation, whatever power controlled by the shunt trip goes away.


So, do they want the units to die when the suppression activates or continue to be able to run?

HVAC controlled by fire alarm systems is normal. I have never has the actual HVAC controlled by a fire suppression system although the fire suppression is generally one point in a fire alarm system so the HVAC would change operating status upon fire suppression activation although not directly by the FSS activation.

So, what ya got and what do ya want?
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:44 AM   #19
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"What got" is a very "green" supervisor ordering my guys to disrupt the fire system by rerouting the HVAC wiring away from the system, without checking to see if this can be done without breaking any fire codes.
"What I want" is can this be done? Of course we could reroute anything, but I don't want my guys breaking any codes from an inexpirianced supervisor.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:59 AM   #20
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Typically, The only Air affected by the suppression system will be make up air/dampers. any additional control SHALL be AFTER this system.

Think heating system: EM shut off- Firematic-then service switch. Think of the Hood system as the Em shut off.

1) These should be in the system and operating already,so no need to mess with them.
2) What exactly are the T-stats operating?

I think we need a better 'picture' to accurately assist.
In Ca. can a 7 month apprentice work alone,unsupervised?
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