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Old 09-13-2017, 02:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MTW View Post
Common sense can easily replace NEC rules. The NEC is nothing more than a front for manufacturers to push their products. I would much rather be in a place that doesn't enforce the NEC.
The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.

It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.

You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.

That's all.

See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.

The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.

Things will never change there.

Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.

&&&

As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.

Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.

AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.

In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.

Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:27 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.

It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.

You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.

That's all.

See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.

The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.

Things will never change there.

Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.

&&&

As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.

Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.

AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.

In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.

Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.



Very much so!
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.

It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.

You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.

That's all.

See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.

The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.

Things will never change there.

Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.

&&&

As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.

Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.

AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.

In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.

Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.
This topic is of particular interest to me. Especially this: "The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry" and "there is corruption of the NEC by way of the Nema players".

I have to admit I'm a little naive on the subject and when I did a search to learn more about this I came up empty handed. I would be very appreciative if you could provide your resources on this subject.

Also, I'm curious about what you mean by "You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy." What "stuff" are you referring to? Do you mean occupancies or electrical equipment?
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:25 AM   #24
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Oh jeeze, you read a telsa post. You're in for it now
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by hardworkingstiff View Post
I think it doesn't matter what anyone calls it, if you don't comply you eventually won't get to play. Semantics.
Laws are enforced by...wait for it..... Law enforcement officers(police). When was the last time you were cuffed and hauled off for a code violation? So, it does matter what you call it.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:42 AM   #26
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Once it is adopted by the state legislature it is a law. They could cuff and stuff you if they wanted but that is normally not in the wording of the law.
I am pissed at Pudge for not mentioning me and just kissing hax's ass.
They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:42 AM   #27
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Laws are enforced by...wait for it..... Law enforcement officers(police). When was the last time you were cuffed and hauled off for a code violation? So, it does matter what you call it.
You're being very silly.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:57 AM   #28
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With regard to the NEC being a code reference standard for a regulation
and not a Law , what Backstay just said and what Telsa just
said sums it all up.

The "punishment" (if you will) for non compliance of these standards is no
"Occupancy Permit" being issued by the AHJ...

Also , if a tradesman / company establishes enough of a pattern of non compliance
in theses matters , the licensing commission at the state level who issues trade
licenses can revoke that companies / tradesman the privilegeof even having
a license. (I believe this is what Backstay meant by "not being allowed to play"


"Occupancy Permit" applies to the buildings for new builds / remodels that at the
time of the the issued "certificate of plan approval" by the AHJ are not occupied.

If there is no Occupancy Permit on a building and the resident or business
moves in anyway it can play out in a couple ways I can think of right off the
top of my head..
(1) the AHJ can issue an order to vacate. If the order is ignored than the law is
brought into the matter , a warrant is ordered by the court and the sherriffs
department will eventually handle the matter.
(2) the insurance company will not insure the property.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:30 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by flyboy View Post
This topic is of particular interest to me. Especially this: "The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry" and "there is corruption of the NEC by way of the Nema players".

I have to admit I'm a little naive on the subject and when I did a search to learn more about this I came up empty handed. I would be very appreciative if you could provide your resources on this subject.

Also, I'm curious about what you mean by "You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy." What "stuff" are you referring to? Do you mean occupancies or electrical equipment?
You don't realize that the NEC was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry ?

Let's just start right there.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:59 PM   #30
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You don't realize that the NEC was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry
I'm fully aware of the HISTORY of NFPA 70. I simply asked to see the data that supports your assertion that it's a "front for the insurance industry and corrution of the NEC by way of NEMA players".

Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
Let's just start right there.
Just because "the NEC (NFPA) was ESTABLISHED by the Fire Insurance Industry" does not necessarily make it a "front" for them nor does it support your alleged "corruption" claim of the NEC". I asked if you had any other data to support the claim. If you don't, no big deal. Its simply a conspiracy theory.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:41 PM   #31
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They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.
I agree, these editions of the code ever since have been getting totally ridiculous. Was there something totally dangerous about wiring back in the 1990's that now needs to be corrected?
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by telsa View Post
The NEC is a front for the Fire Insurance Industry.

It's enforced by economics -- not jail cells.

You don't play ball: your stuff doesn't receive a Certificate of Occupancy.

That's all.

See how many clients you'll have after a few of those are hanging around your neck.

The OP's beef is typical of the Residential Service Call Market.

Things will never change there.

Think what an owner can do to his own property -- and no-one is the wiser.

&&&

As for the Fire Insurance Industry calling the shots, look at all of the posts WRT aged wiring: aluminum and K&T. Yes, they ALL turn on what the Fire Insurance Industry wants... or shuns.

Granted, there is corruption of the NEC by way of the NEMA players.

AFCI comes immediately to mind... then handle ties for MWBC... etc.

In the Third World, the Insurance Industry is weak. The results can be seen from street level. Everything is a mess... a farce. And, naturally enough, things keep breaking down... like 'every day' breaking down.

Puerto Rico is a half-way point in this transition: astounding (retail) power theft while nominally adhering to the NEC and using NEMA products.
Handle ties on MWBC can be a life saver
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:53 PM   #33
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Route: Ohio Administrative Code 4101:1 Board of Building Standards: Ohio Building Code
Chapter 4101:1-27 Electrical Components, Equipment and Systems


4101:1-27-01 [Effective until 11/1/2017] Electrical.
SECTION 2701 GENERAL

2701.1 Scope. This chapter governs the electrical components, equipment and systems used in buildings and structures covered by this code. Electrical components, equipment and systems shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the provisions of NFPA 70.



this is what i'm referring to as law, state says you have to install per nfpa 70, if someone doesn't install to this and someone gets hurt or something burns down they can file criminal charges against you and even if it wasn't a result of the non-conformance, with it written like this it makes it easier for a lawsuit or charges to be filed against you.
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Last edited by Wiresmith; 09-14-2017 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:15 PM   #34
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if the state and building departments are going to inspect and pass installations that are not code compliant, when it is a written "whatever you wanna call it" (all while charging the customer and tax-payers for inspections), i don't know if it would better match the real world if the law said using nfpa 70 as a guideline. i think if the inspectors would hold everyone to the code this wouldn't matter, but they don't. just been thinking about it and not sure so i wanted your guys' thoughts.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:43 PM   #35
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Who are you? I used to know a Pudge before he and Gold deserted me.
Jobs and lives. I'm an important inspector now and I'm working on my BSEE.

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Once it is adopted by the state legislature it is a law. They could cuff and stuff you if they wanted but that is normally not in the wording of the law.
I am pissed at Pudge for not mentioning me and just kissing hax's ass.
They should have quit making additions to the code in about 1993, maybe 96. The rest is just fluff in my opinion.
Sorry I am boycotting the name Sabrina right now...
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:50 PM   #36
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I agree, these editions of the code ever since have been getting totally ridiculous. Was there something totally dangerous about wiring back in the 1990's that now needs to be corrected?
Yeah some rules are totally ridiculous

But many electricians felt that way in the '60s about grounded receptacles

And I remember thinking that GFCI's were unnecessary in the '70s, just another code to make more money for manufacturers

So maybe we'll get used to it
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:56 PM   #37
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Yeah some rules are totally ridiculous

But many electricians felt that way in the '60s about grounded receptacles

And I remember thinking that GFCI's were unnecessary in the '70s, just another code to make more money for manufacturers

So maybe we'll get used to it
I have no issues whatsoever with GFCI's or grounding. I'm all for expanding the use of GFCI's. But otherwise I consider the NEC as valuable as toilet paper.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:33 PM   #38
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I have no issues whatsoever with GFCI's or grounding. I'm all for expanding the use of GFCI's.
I have no issues with GFCIs either, but I don't think we need to expand their use any further. Even the last expansion to garage door openers is silly.

Like Jackwad said, the 96 code was fine.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:37 PM   #39
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I have no issues with GFCIs either, but I don't think we need to expand their use any further. Even the last expansion to garage door openers is silly.

Like Jackwad said, the 96 code was fine.
Now that I think about it, you're right. It has gone overboard. Having blanket rules for GFCI's in basements for sump pumps, ejector pumps, freezers, etc is stupid. tI'd be totally happy with the 96 NEC.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:39 PM   #40
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Now that I think about it, you're right.
Yes!!!


I knew I would get something right today.

It still counts even if it took until 9:30PM
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