Anti Sieze on Bolted Connections? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > Industrial Electrical Forum


Like Tree17Likes
  • 1 Post By Wiresmith
  • 1 Post By Bird dog
  • 1 Post By Peewee0413
  • 2 Post By 460 Delta
  • 1 Post By splatz
  • 2 Post By glen1971
  • 5 Post By al_smelter
  • 1 Post By Lone Crapshooter
  • 1 Post By al_smelter
  • 2 Post By gpop
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-08-2019, 08:08 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
al_smelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The very tip of Lake Michigan
Posts: 434
Rewards Points: 526
Default Anti Sieze on Bolted Connections?

We have three phases of 34kV feeding my (our) EAF furnace. There are four 350 MCM cables per incoming phase bolted to a common bus that tie together four parallel Joslyn vacuum switches. Double that number of connections because the load side of the Joslyns are configured the same way out to the tapping transformer. So for each phase there are 32 bolted connections. I (we, they) currently use 1/2"-13 stainless steel hardware.

We PM hi-pot these Joslyn switches every month, so everything gets disassembled to isolate each switch. Today we galled up and had to cut off sixteen frozen SS bolts. I'm told that this happens every time they do this PM. Not good.

How about a dab of anti seize on each bolt? Any reason we shouldn't? I've never been a fan of wet connections in the MV, but we just take these things apart so often that I think we should look at a possible solution to a pretty big time and material waster.

They hired me as a troubleshooter. I'm going to give them their money's worth until they either listen or run me off!

Cheers,
Mark
al_smelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-08-2019, 08:33 PM   #2
Vacated
 
Wiresmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1,454
Rewards Points: 2,848
Default

yep, dab is fine. many people also use a silicon bronze nut with the stainless bolt
(you don't need anti-seize with this combination).

i can't tell by your description if you are using stress cones or not or bare or insulated but if there is any possible problem with grease getting on anything in the area be careful, check/clean everything. have one guy only do bolts and never-seize and another guy only hold the cable.
stiffneck likes this.
__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. ~Henri Louis Bergson

Last edited by Wiresmith; 05-08-2019 at 08:37 PM.
Wiresmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2019, 09:26 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Jlarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 14,174
Rewards Points: 4,040
Default

I've never had an issue using food grade non metal anti-seize (the white stuff) on stainless gear bolts.
__________________
Everything has user serviceable parts inside.
Jlarson is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-08-2019, 09:39 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Bird dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: South East US
Posts: 5,192
Rewards Points: 148
Default

Don't know if this will work for you, but, the anti-seize I've seen has copper in it.
stiffneck likes this.
__________________
Popcorn munching forum observer
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." Sun Tzu
Bird dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 12:29 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Peewee0413's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New mexico
Posts: 565
Rewards Points: 254
Default

16 1/2" bolts a month for 12 months. If that's hurting their pocket you have more things to worry about. Why are you using stainless steel?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Navyguy likes this.
Peewee0413 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Peewee0413 For This Useful Post:
sparky970 (05-13-2019)
Old 05-09-2019, 01:08 AM   #6
Cow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 2,939
Rewards Points: 4,714
Default

We use anti sieze on all our stainless hardware for the reasons you mentioned. Nobody likes siezed fasteners.
Cow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 06:52 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
460 Delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Southern Ohio
Posts: 853
Rewards Points: 1,052
Default

A convenient way to carry anti-seize and easily dispense it is in the chapstick tubes. I keep a tube in my service bag and use it on anything I want to disassemble in the future.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of good enough
460 Delta is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 460 Delta For This Useful Post:
Signal1 (05-09-2019)
Old 05-09-2019, 06:58 AM   #8
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,687
Rewards Points: 20
Default

https://www.crcindustries.com/world-anti-seize/

I notice that only the copper grade lists being electrically conductive.
stiffneck likes this.
__________________
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler
splatz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 09:14 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Alberta Rockies
Posts: 2,740
Rewards Points: 3,836
Default

I've always thought that stainless is especially prone to galling when torqued. Just remember that lubricating the threads will also effect your torque values.
Navyguy and stiffneck like this.
glen1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 10:28 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
al_smelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The very tip of Lake Michigan
Posts: 434
Rewards Points: 526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peewee0413 View Post
16 1/2" bolts a month for 12 months. If that's hurting their pocket you have more things to worry about. Why are you using stainless steel?
I sense that you may not be a manager in an industrial environment working for a stockholder company? But even if you are simply a worker bee in that environment, I'd be surprised if you didn't hear about cost reduction and time management. If you haven't, then let me explain.

There is quite often more to these types of issues than simple dollars and cents for a few chunks of material- even though throwing any money away is foolish for a business whose sole goal is to make money. Everything that is unscheduled during a routine maintenance function translates to increased time and/or money. When you consistently rack up enough of these rectifiable delays you equal a shoddy maintenance department. The goal is to minimize surprises and to keep a smooth workflow going if possible. The aim to achieve a world class maintenance department is efficiency and cost control. My original post is but one example.

Our turnarounds occur weekly and last from 16 to 24 hours. And like almost everyone else, we have a limited number of electricians to cover each turnaround. Add the fact that, in addition to a huge number of PMs and scheduled work to be done in a short amount of time, we are also the lock/ tag/ try people for some extremely complex and interlocked systems. There is no ass time on Wednesdays.

When I assign a craftsperson to a task like this PM of the twelve Joslyns, which includes bus and cable disassembly, micro resistance tests (contacts closed), Hi-Pot tests (contacts open), cycle recordings/ paperwork, general insulator and room cleaning, and reassembly, I know exactly how long this assignment should take start to finish. When stupid things slow the guy down, the entire schedule for that person could be, and often is impacted. Then I must adjust the workload or personnel placement for the rest of the day. So, things like this not only screw up the turnaround, they also screw ME up; neither of which are desirable nor acceptable.

The time spent getting a cutoff wheel, stringing an extension cord, cutting the bolt, cleaning up stress cones of the conductive swarf, going to stores for a bolt, nut and washer, wrapping the cord and angle grinder back up, and hauling it all back to the shop takes up valuable time. Now, multiply the middle part of that task list by 16. Time and material NOT well spent.

After reading the great replies to my inquiry, I’ll probably first try to get silicon bronze hardware pushed through, which I’ve always favored. If they don’t go for that then maybe just SB nuts on the stainless (though I’ll need to research compatibility and torque values). Finally, I’ll insist on anti-seize. We already use a conductive type for our Line disconnect/ grounding switch. Sounds like a dab on each bolt might save us some time during this PM.

As usual, thank you all.
Mark

Last edited by al_smelter; 05-09-2019 at 10:30 AM.
al_smelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 10:35 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Peewee0413's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New mexico
Posts: 565
Rewards Points: 254
Default

Bronze should do it

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Peewee0413 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 01:45 PM   #12
Vacated
 
Wiresmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1,454
Rewards Points: 2,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_smelter View Post

If they don’t go for that then maybe just SB nuts on the stainless (though I’ll need to research compatibility and torque values).


https://alliedboltinc.com/Fasteners/...BRONZE-NUT~498


might be able to ask them for torque, I would guess bronze torque value or a little higher, I don't think ss torque would hurt, the bolt is the weaker link when both are the same material


1/2-13 bronze is 480 and 316ss is 542 in-lbs (40 and 45 ft-lbs)
__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. ~Henri Louis Bergson
Wiresmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2019, 02:17 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,880
Rewards Points: 2,212
Default

When I worked at the plant I was in electrical distribution and we used stainless steel hardware on terminations without Neverseeze. We torqued everything only had a occasional problem with galling. Just lucky I guess. Remember to use wet torque values when using Neverseeze.
In the past the plant used Silicon Bronze but you could only use them one time.
glen1971 likes this.
__________________
What tools do I need to carry? Use the NEC as your guide keep all your tools ACCESSABLE but keep your everyday tools READILY ACCESSABLE.

Last edited by Lone Crapshooter; 05-09-2019 at 02:21 PM.
Lone Crapshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2019, 06:46 PM   #14
Vacated
 
Wiresmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1,454
Rewards Points: 2,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Crapshooter View Post
When I worked at the plant I was in electrical distribution and we used stainless steel hardware on terminations without Neverseeze. We torqued everything only had a occasional problem with galling. Just lucky I guess. Remember to use wet torque values when using Neverseeze.
In the past the plant used Silicon Bronze but you could only use them one time.
the connection heating up promotes galling


there are different grades of silicon bronze, from what i have seen i think the 99% copper is the best to use in most applications, the others appear brittle and i have seen one break in service(the bolt).
Burndy Durium is 99%
__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. ~Henri Louis Bergson
Wiresmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2019, 09:51 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,880
Rewards Points: 2,212
Default

The plant had downsized so much we had more problems with overvoltage rather than overloads.
It was not uncommon to see 480 feeeders with 510 or higher voltages. We had to have the overvoltage start disabled on a emergency generator because the generator would start and transfer because of high voltage.

LC
__________________
What tools do I need to carry? Use the NEC as your guide keep all your tools ACCESSABLE but keep your everyday tools READILY ACCESSABLE.

Last edited by Lone Crapshooter; 05-12-2019 at 11:31 PM.
Lone Crapshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 04:37 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
al_smelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The very tip of Lake Michigan
Posts: 434
Rewards Points: 526
Default

I have found out that we get 316 stainless hardware as bin stock. That is probably a major reason they are used for this application. I have suggested at least SB nuts and a real torque value. I saw some noses shrink up when I mentioned torque. Everything is battery impact torqued and then breaker bar verified!

Ah, to love the steel mill environment.
glen1971 likes this.
al_smelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2019, 02:06 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: florida
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_smelter View Post
I have found out that we get 316 stainless hardware as bin stock. That is probably a major reason they are used for this application. I have suggested at least SB nuts and a real torque value. I saw some noses shrink up when I mentioned torque. Everything is battery impact torqued and then breaker bar verified!

Ah, to love the steel mill environment.
first lesson you learn as a wrench in a food grade factory (where everything is 316).

Never use a impact as it will gaul the threads due to the fiction between the nut and bolt. its also possible for the nut to seize before it bottoms out which can trick a torque wrench in to thinking its tight. (its not so much the rattling of the impact wrench its more to do with the speed it turns the nut)

Next thing we learn is that 316 is easier to break then it is to clean up the dust from cutting so just tighten it until it pops.
Navyguy and glen1971 like this.
gpop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 09:40 PM   #18
Junior Member
 
Instrumentation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: East coast
Posts: 25
Rewards Points: 50
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpop View Post
first lesson you learn as a wrench in a food grade factory (where everything is 316).

Never use a impact as it will gaul the threads due to the fiction between the nut and bolt. its also possible for the nut to seize before it bottoms out which can trick a torque wrench in to thinking its tight. (its not so much the rattling of the impact wrench its more to do with the speed it turns the nut)

Next thing we learn is that 316 is easier to break then it is to clean up the dust from cutting so just tighten it until it pops.

Interesting tip, I never knew that.



anyway, I will never use stainless steel bolts without antiseize.
Instrumentation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:08 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 323
Rewards Points: 86
Default

Do not use copper based anti-seize on stainless in high temperature environments. Apparently at high temperatures there's a reaction that causes the stainless to crack.
Jarp Habib is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice Needed - Temporary Lighting Connections Max C. Canadian Electrical Forum 38 02-02-2018 12:10 AM
Final connections in service panel. Mcswain General Electrical Discussion 21 07-15-2017 02:52 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com