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Old 07-19-2019, 06:17 PM   #1
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Default Industrial Help Needed

Im planning out the install of a Trumatic 7000 with True Flow 4000 and Laser Process Cooler.

I’ve figured a connected load of 87KVA

A few things I need to consider and not to sure about.

1. Impermissible Voltage fluctuations reducing performance. Should a voltage stabilizer or a regulated isolating transformer be considered?

2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160
Why does the C-phase show as higher protection?
(Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)

3. Would a Residual Current Device be standard practice here ? If so, Again would an unregulated isolating transformer be used with an RCD in this scenario ?




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Old 07-19-2019, 09:39 PM   #2
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I've installed/troubleshot/maintained about 2 dozen lasers so far, most of them are 15 - 40KVA. I've simply connected every one of them to normal power, just like any other load.....never had a problem.

I don't know why the fuses are listed as different ratings, maybe the engineer is an idiot.......

Unless this one is different than most others, I doubt if it needs anything special.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:35 PM   #3
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If all else fails, read the instructions. Surely the documentation would address any warnings, and cautions. I would do a load check after installation to see if L3 is drawing more current, just for S's n G's.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WronGun View Post
Im planning out the install of a Trumatic 7000 with True Flow 4000 and Laser Process Cooler.

I’ve figured a connected load of 87KVA

A few things I need to consider and not to sure about.

1. Impermissible Voltage fluctuations reducing performance. Should a voltage stabilizer or a regulated isolating transformer be considered?

I would not worry about it too much if you have very clean power supply source unless very specfially from the manufacter.,

2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160
Why does the C-phase show as higher protection?
(Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)

where did you find that info at? I hoping it is not a typo due 160 is not a super common item in usa side.

3. Would a Residual Current Device be standard practice here ? If so, Again would an unregulated isolating transformer be used with an RCD in this scenario ?

RCD ? genrally not super common in USA at all and I dont think it justify the cost for RCD


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Ya runing at 480 volts ? if so which flavor you are running on this one Wye or Delta at that location?
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:49 AM   #5
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Ya runing at 480 volts ? if so which flavor you are running on this one Wye or Delta at that location?


480 wye


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Old 07-20-2019, 05:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by micromind View Post
I've installed/troubleshot/maintained about 2 dozen lasers so far, most of them are 15 - 40KVA. I've simply connected every one of them to normal power, just like any other load.....never had a problem.

I don't know why the fuses are listed as different ratings, maybe the engineer is an idiot.......

Unless this one is different than most others, I doubt if it needs anything special.


This is from the spec sheet. I’m never surprised to see oddities in an industrial settings. I’m not very experienced in industrial by any means but I learn something on everything I do on these jobs.

I’ve been working at this manufacturing plant for sometime now, but it’s always moving heavy automated machinery around. When we do this we are updating the electrical but basically copying the previous installation with some minor adjustments. This has taught me a few things without having to lose my mind and introduced me to this part of the trade.

So now we are bringing in new machines and new loads. A little bit more homework to do now.

Probably why they recently upped their insurance requirements for us.

There are onsite engineers. I’m not sure how much Info or design they will offer, I also don’t want to seem incompetent.


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Old 07-20-2019, 07:33 PM   #7
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The engineers are there for you. If you have a question ask and they will get you an answer. They have bosses to so they will do what it takes to assist you in the installation. Remember it’s there equipment and they have a timeline so they are at your mercy
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WronGun View Post


2. Fuse protection is listed as 125/125/160
Why does the C-phase show as higher protection?
(Conductors L1, L2, L3, PE)(THHN 2000Volt)

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that sounds like a high leg delta!
and its been a long time for me on deltas systems!

Ive worked primarily wye systems at the factory.
check the specs and communicate with the engineers.
they should be able to help you clear that up
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:48 PM   #9
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that sounds like a high leg delta!
and its been a long time for me on deltas systems!

Ive worked primarily wye systems at the factory.
check the specs and communicate with the engineers.
they should be able to help you clear that up


It’s wye and wye is also required for this unit.


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Old 07-26-2019, 07:04 PM   #10
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Ok I’ve spent some time online researching if there is a method for testing WYE power ?

I know I can go back to the xformer, but Isn’t there a way to check by voltages at the panel ?


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Old 07-30-2019, 10:00 PM   #11
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https://www.belden.com/blog/data-cen...rs?hs_amp=true

This link seems to give me a very straight forward description.


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Old 07-30-2019, 10:26 PM   #12
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Ok I’ve spent some time online researching if there is a method for testing WYE power ?

I know I can go back to the xformer, but Isn’t there a way to check by voltages at the panel ?


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Phase to phase works regardless of the transformer for voltage. Phase to neutral or ground works on wye but not delta for obvious reasons. That’s for voltage. Current works the same everywhere. If you are wanting to measure power though you need the phase angle between them which unless you are good with an oscilloscope or something like that a watts transducer or a power meter is the practicsl way.


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Old 07-31-2019, 12:13 PM   #13
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Yes I was told a neutral is not needed but wye configuration is needed. Back to square 1. How can I figure out if this is wye or not?


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Old 07-31-2019, 04:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WronGun View Post
https://www.belden.com/blog/data-cen...rs?hs_amp=true

This link seems to give me a very straight forward description.
Quote:
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Yes I was told a neutral is not needed but wye configuration is needed. Back to square 1. How can I figure out if this is wye or not?
I think what they are saying in the Belden paper is, you can supply a PDU for single phase line to line voltage loads with either delta or wye - you're only wiring in the three phases and have no line to neutral loads. (The PDUs are really just fancy plugmold.)

With a 240V delta supply you'll get 240V single phase line to line out of the PDU. You won't use a neutral because there isn't one.

With a 208V wye supply and a PDU wired delta, you'll get 208V single phase line to line at the PDU. That may be OK if you weren't counting on 240V when you bought that 240V PDU. You won't use the neutral because the PDU doesn't supply any phase to neutral loads.

Or are you trying to figure out whether your supply is wye or delta?
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:05 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by splatz View Post
I think what they are saying in the Belden paper is, you can supply a PDU for single phase line to line voltage loads with either delta or wye - you're only wiring in the three phases and have no line to neutral loads. (The PDUs are really just fancy plugmold.)

With a 240V delta supply you'll get 240V single phase line to line out of the PDU. You won't use a neutral because there isn't one.

With a 208V wye supply and a PDU wired delta, you'll get 208V single phase line to line at the PDU. That may be OK if you weren't counting on 240V when you bought that 240V PDU. You won't use the neutral because the PDU doesn't supply any phase to neutral loads.

Or are you trying to figure out whether your supply is wye or delta?


Yes , the laser we are installing needs wye 3-phase.

2 transformers we found are old and name plates are worn. I contacted utility and found out the main transformer is wye secondary. This building is massive I wish there was an easier way to know 100% the panel we are feeding from is wye.


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Old 08-01-2019, 01:53 PM   #16
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Not that this answers your question but it seems odd that it would specifically need 480V wye if it doesn't need a neutral. How does the equipment know? Does it bootleg something to the frame ground internally to get 277? I'd also think that if the specs say it has to be wye, they mean grounded. I might ask the engineer in writing to clarify that, and make sure you get a response in writing.

There must be no neutral in the panel, if there was you'd know it was wye because there was a neutral, and you'd have 277v phase to neutral, and you wouldn't have asked. If the neutral of the wye is grounded, but there's no neutral in the panel, you'll still see 277V line to ground at the panel.

If it's ungrounded wye without a neutral, you don't have any way to check phase to neutral in the panel. I don't think you can tell ungrounded wye from ungrounded delta without a neutral!
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:30 PM   #17
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Not that this answers your question but it seems odd that it would specifically need 480V wye if it doesn't need a neutral. How does the equipment know? Does it bootleg something to the frame ground internally to get 277? I'd also think that if the specs say it has to be wye, they mean grounded. I might ask the engineer in writing to clarify that, and make sure you get a response in writing.



There must be no neutral in the panel, if there was you'd know it was wye because there was a neutral, and you'd have 277v phase to neutral, and you wouldn't have asked. If the neutral of the wye is grounded, but there's no neutral in the panel, you'll still see 277V line to ground at the panel.



If it's ungrounded wye without a neutral, you don't have any way to check phase to neutral in the panel. I don't think you can tell ungrounded wye from ungrounded delta without a neutral!


Delta causes the laser to run abnormally it also can damage the drive and processors.

I’ve confirmed with Trumpf engineers a neutral
Is not required, just 480V Wye.

The panel we are pulling from has no neutral and all lines test 277v to G, 480 line to line.

We did confirm the main utility is wye secondary. We traced the utility transformer to the main 1600 Amp switchgear.

Out of this switchgear we traced direct breaker feeds to an existing Trumpf Laser which is more good news.

Out of this switchgear we have a 4’ section of 4” pipe that feeds another older GE 480V panel with a 200A Breaker that’s feeds the panel we are using.

So far all is good , no transformers have been found in-between. Although , seeing as I’m about to power up a machine that costs north of 1/4 million I wanted some hard evidence specifically right from the panel we are feeding from.

Another thing we found is this panel we are using was feeding another laser by a different manufacturer which we are replacing, this machine is now long gone and the area the size of a basketball court has now been cleared and epoxied for this new Trumpf monster.

Engineers at this plant are more mechanical not so much electrical and are relying on me to figure out the correct power.

Sure we can come from the main gear which is 600’-800’ away from this location but the correct thing would be to verify wye and use the panel which is about 150’ away. I just didn’t know verifying wye would be so stressful !

However , I think we are close to being sure at this point , just wish I had something more visual.


Also, technically we could feed all the way to the machine using Delta and use a regulated isolation low impedance transformer at the location. They require under 2.5% impedance.


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Old 08-01-2019, 07:06 PM   #18
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The panel we are pulling from has no neutral and all lines test 277v to G, 480 line to line.
So mission accomplished, right? If it wasn't wye you wouldn't be seeing 277V.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:15 PM   #19
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You cannot tell one ungrounded system from another as far as wye vs delta other than taking measurements of the transformer or checking the name plate or looking for an X0. Ungrounded systems aren’t totally ungrounded...they’re capacitively grounded but it takes very little to make the neutral drift so you may see roughly 277 to ground even if it’s not. The comment from Trimpf makes no sense except if they are grounded somewhere.


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Old 08-01-2019, 07:36 PM   #20
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So mission accomplished, right? If it wasn't wye you wouldn't be seeing 277V.


Is this true though ?


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