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Old 12-07-2018, 12:27 AM   #1
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Default Anyone here manage a business while also working for the man?

I'm currently working for FCA as a maintenece electrician. We do an easy $150 k a year but we work 6-7 days a week. I have bee doing 7 days a week for months and also doing about 15-30 hours of side jobs on the off hours. Since our job is not physically demanding at the factory and we're on shift work I'm able to manage some construction jobs on the side as well.

Even better I have an apprentice who is able to help me when I'm too lazy. But he needs a lot of supervision being a 0 term. Haven't found anyone else yet but not necessarily looking hard since I don't have enough work to employ for 40 hours a week. That and when I get my masters next year I will be able to take on a lot more work like full houses etc.

I've thought about leaving here once I get my masters but it's a very comfortable job with benefits and of course I have a lot of friends here. End up being closer with them then my family due to the amount of time we're together.

However I've also thought about staying here and getting a couple guys who are like me when I was a third term. With a truck and a lot to prove. Even a licensed guy who can supervise a couple younger guys.

Not sure how it will all work out. If we close like all those GM plants then it would force my hand anyway. We haven't been retooled in 20 years or so.

Just wondering if anyone else is managing something like this.

I would probably make as much in 10 days as I do here in a month.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:55 AM   #2
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I would probably make as much in 10 days as I do here in a month.
are you sure you know what you make in a month? including benefits and such

if you're just comparing amount on paycheck, you'd probably come out about the same either way
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:11 AM   #3
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Benefits are ok... Can always buy your own. Pension is self defined, company matches up to 6%. Rrsp self contributed. So pension I'd be missing on a couple thousand a year and benefits I'd have to find out an exact amount so that is good advice.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:16 AM   #4
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If your employer is ok with you having the business while you work for them (moonlighting is what we call that here) then by all means run both if you have the stamina and opportunity. Your own business can be fun and rewarding. It can also be cyclical, as also can be the job you have today.



If you're able to do both, you'll know pretty quick (within the first year if not sooner) the difference between the two and therefore be able to make a better informed decision.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:06 PM   #5
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I thought that every EC was working for the tax-man.

To the OP: you've got it made in the shade.

Being an EC is not like that at all.

You'd actually be BETTER off taking your talent and getting into the real estate (improvement) business.

Start with baby-steps, though. We're at the peak of the real estate mania.

The beauty about your OWN real estate project is that you can largely determine timing... as in fitting the flow around your primary work obligations.

As an EC your control over timing is rather like that of a mid-wife.

For the ultimate in inept work flow: work under a small time Residential GC. You can spot him by his fuming coffee... no, that's not caffeine you're sniffing.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:32 PM   #6
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I'm currently working for FCA as a maintenece electrician. We do an easy $150 k a year but we work 6-7 days a week. I have bee doing 7 days a week for months and also doing about 15-30 hours of side jobs on the off hours. Since our job is not physically demanding at the factory and we're on shift work I'm able to manage some construction jobs on the side as well.

Even better I have an apprentice who is able to help me when I'm too lazy. But he needs a lot of supervision being a 0 term. Haven't found anyone else yet but not necessarily looking hard since I don't have enough work to employ for 40 hours a week. That and when I get my masters next year I will be able to take on a lot more work like full houses etc.

I've thought about leaving here once I get my masters but it's a very comfortable job with benefits and of course I have a lot of friends here. End up being closer with them then my family due to the amount of time we're together.

However I've also thought about staying here and getting a couple guys who are like me when I was a third term. With a truck and a lot to prove. Even a licensed guy who can supervise a couple younger guys.

Not sure how it will all work out. If we close like all those GM plants then it would force my hand anyway. We haven't been retooled in 20 years or so.

Just wondering if anyone else is managing something like this.

I would probably make as much in 10 days as I do here in a month.
So since no one else has mentioned it, are you running an illegal Electrical Contracting business? By the sounds of it you are not an LEC registered with the ECRA... unless you have hired a Master, which you said you don't have enough work for another guy... it sounds like you are running a buckshee operation.

Therefore your "apprentice" cannot be accredited any hours, so you are kinda screwing him too.

Somebody has to be "that guy", I guess today it is me.

Cheers
John
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:03 PM   #7
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I have several masters that pull permits for me. I doubt ECs pull permits for every chandelier you change. I've been running my business for over 6 years "moonlighting" while I was working for this company and several before them. No one seemed to mind as long as I showed up to work. Always preferred my own jobs as they were much slower and less stress. I was never under the pressure of meeting the boss' demands.

Also since you don't seem to be aware of how all our laws and rules work anyone can sign any hours they want as long as it's on a letterhead.

When you say getting into real estate business do you mean being a builder and supervising all projects?

I've always been of the belief that you can fire a customer as much as you can get fired and have only chosen to work with long repeat customers that I have a good history with. Never once advertised and have many times had to refuse work. Even when I started at the factory I tried to shutter my business and still recieved calls "I know your closed now but can you help me with...". Seems as though my lax attitude, honesty and integrity with my customers has gone a long way. I charge more than average which has prevented me from ever having to nickel and dime a customer to move a plug or come for an extra day.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:45 PM   #8
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I have several masters that pull permits for me. I doubt ECs pull permits for every chandelier you change. I've been running my business for over 6 years "moonlighting" while I was working for this company and several before them. No one seemed to mind as long as I showed up to work. Always preferred my own jobs as they were much slower and less stress. I was never under the pressure of meeting the boss' demands.

Also since you don't seem to be aware of how all our laws and rules work anyone can sign any hours they want as long as it's on a letterhead.

When you say getting into real estate business do you mean being a builder and supervising all projects?

I've always been of the belief that you can fire a customer as much as you can get fired and have only chosen to work with long repeat customers that I have a good history with. Never once advertised and have many times had to refuse work. Even when I started at the factory I tried to shutter my business and still recieved calls "I know your closed now but can you help me with...". Seems as though my lax attitude, honesty and integrity with my customers has gone a long way. I charge more than average which has prevented me from ever having to nickel and dime a customer to move a plug or come for an extra day.
Your post is riddled with illegal and unethical issues.

If you have other LECs pulling permits for you, then you are essentially working for them; perhaps for free, but it is their reputation and insurance on the line. Not only putting the client at risk but also the LEC. You are correct, an LEC does not pull permits for everything, so not sure what your point is there. The difference is that an LEC does not have to skirt the permit process.

I actually do know how the laws work. You are right that hours can be accredited by an LEC; you are not. Unless you are going to get the same unscrupulous LEC that pulled your permits to write for apprentices hours... hopefully that would not throw them into a bad ratio or issues with CRA if somebody wanted to look into it just a little bit deeper.

It sounds like you have what it takes (except the credentials) to be a good LEC, but since you can't actually have a legal electrical contracting business, I am loathe hear you talk about "your business" and "your customers".

While I am not one to fully agree with the government's decision in 2007 to force Journeymen Electricians to have a master ticket, insurance, WSIB, etc to be an LEC; that is the law of the land and those that don't comply give us all a bad name and "steal" work away from the guys playing by the rules.

I know I sound like an a$$, really I am not. It is just extremely frustrating for me to hear about all these "side jobbers" that take work away from legitimate LECs; it is even worse when they are pro union and heaven forbid a non-union LEC trying to work on a union job. Of course it is only partially your fault; the client is to blame to. If the client's were not in search of the unscrupulous handyman (usually at bargain basement cost) there would never be any work for the side jobbers.

Cheers
John
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:16 AM   #9
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Wow you do really sound like one. First off, any contractor can sub to anyone they want. I have 2 mill gen liability insurance, a registered business and I pull permits for my jobs. WSIB can be obtained by anyone with a registered business. Same with commercial insurance. If theLEC is willing to "risk their reputation" it's their perogative and to be honest since they know me and my work I don't think they see it as any more of a risk than hiring any other guy to work directly for them. There are several ways to structure your business under the confines of the law. Additionally I have never once received a deficiency in the last six years because.. well if you follow the code and work with any complaints the inspector may have, it's pretty easy to take care of any problems that come up. Respecting the inspector goes a long way.

I am licensed and have worked for many a company that was not started by skilled trades but hired masters to pull their permits. Some people have business ideas and no license to do the work so they follow the protocols to maintain a master or work under them. Like you said I don't make the rules just follow them. Also you literally do not need an ECRA number to sign hours. You need a letterhead. I could have signed my own hours through my own company.

I guarantee when I retire I will be more than willing to sell out my license to a good business that wants to use it.

I really don't see how any of this has any more inherent risk to the customer than hiring any other contractor.

And I have no idea where you're going with the CRA thing but honestly dude go take a pill. Side job isn't code for hack. I pay an incredible amount of taxes per year in Gst/hst and income tax.

Wow the more I read your post the more I can add. You can thank us unioners for the wages and labor protections all workers across the country have today. Our wages and laws bring yours up along with ours. You should read into the history of how unions got started when the RCMP was shooting citizens for protesting working 7 days a week for 10 hours a day in the paper Mills.

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Old 12-08-2018, 12:37 AM   #10
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Wow you do really sound like one. First off, any contractor can sub to anyone they want. I have 2 mill gen liability insurance, a registered business and I pull permits for my jobs. WSIB can be obtained by anyone with a registered business. Same with commercial insurance. If theLEC is willing to "risk their reputation" it's their perogative and to be honest since they know me and my work I don't think they see it as any more of a risk than hiring any other guy to work directly for them. There are several ways to structure your business under the confines of the law. Additionally I have never once received a deficiency in the last six years because.. well if you follow the code and work with any complaints the inspector may have, it's pretty easy to take care of any problems that come up. Respecting the inspector goes a long way.

I am licensed and have worked for many a company that was not started by skilled trades but hired masters to pull their permits. Some people have business ideas and no license to do the work so they follow the protocols to maintain a master or work under them. Like you said I don't make the rules just follow them. Also you literally do not need an ECRA number to sign hours. You need a letterhead. I could have signed my own hours through my own company.

I guarantee when I retire I will be more than willing to sell out my license to a good business that wants to use it.

I really don't see how any of this is has any more inherent risk to the customer than hiring any other contractor.

And I have no idea where you're going with the CRA thing but honestly dude go take a pill. Side job isn't code for hack.
Navy is a class act and more than willing to use his experience and wisdom to help others out. He laid out some words that must hurt you in some way, maybe because they are true, so you feel the need to come at him like that.

Perhaps the pill should be consumed by you.

Best of luck to you and your endeavors.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:03 AM   #11
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Navy is a class act and more than willing to use his experience and wisdom to help others out. He laid out some words that must hurt you in some way, maybe because they are true, so you feel the need to come at him like that.

Perhaps the pill should be consumed by you.


Best of luck to you and your endeavors.

Not really bud, he made a lot of assumptions.

Seems a little hell bent on those side jobbers too. Get over it. Under the table guys are a dime a dozen and arent going anywhere. Separate yourselves by offering a legitimate service.

There are customers who seek both types and like I said just work for the customers you like.

I really don't appreciate the slander and I don't see that as classy in any kind of way.

I certainly wasn't legit when I started painting rooms and laying patio stones when I was 19 but I picked it all up as I went along.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:10 AM   #12
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He's not hell bent on side jobbers, they don't affect his business at all. They do affect legitimate contractors that are attempting to provide for their employees and their families, that I imagine he has issue with.

He doesn't play in the same ballpark as you, so no skin off of his back. He also prefaced his words on more than one occasion to show that.

You appear to have a chip on your shoulder. Instead of belittling those who could actually serve to help you, listen to what they say and take it in. That chip could work quite well with the intelligence you seem to have.

Conversely it could work out quite horribly with the wrong attitude. I am not sure of the laws in your region, but sooner or later skirting them catches up with you. Best to begin to learn how to comply and make money, rather than fight it all the time.

Again, best of luck to you.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:14 AM   #13
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You guys must not be reading my posts. Telling me my post is riddled with illegal and ethical issues is just wrong. Assuming I don't have insurance, wsib, a license, pay the CRA and pull permits is incorrect.

It cost me $60 to open my business when I was 19 and have learned the rest since then. Always worked under a licensed guy and have been covered by insurance until I got my own.

Got nailed by the CRA in my first year because I didn't know how taxes worked and did my paperwork since that time.

Yea I have a chip for the guy slandering me for sure. As would most.

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Old 12-08-2018, 01:21 AM   #14
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You guys must not be reading my posts. Telling me my post is riddled with illegal and ethical issues is just wrong. Assuming I don't have insurance, wsib, a license, pay the CRA and pull permits is incorrect.
Is it legal for the LEC (Yes I have to assume that is a "Licensed Electrical Contractor) to pull permits for a non LEC?

If you are 100% legal then just state it. If not, then just accept the criticism for what it is.

I am in Cali, if you were here no other contractor can pull a permit for you. They can't sub out work unless it is to another licensed contractor, and even then there are issues that may cause them to be employees.

We can only go off of what you're saying, and it seems that you said another contractor is pulling permits for you to do the work. Is that legal where you are at? (Not will if fly, but is it legal?)
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:35 AM   #15
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You guys must not be reading my posts. Telling me my post is riddled with illegal and ethical issues is just wrong. Assuming I don't have insurance, wsib, a license, pay the CRA and pull permits is incorrect.
Is it legal for the LEC (Yes I have to assume that is a "Licensed Electrical Contractor) to pull permits for a non LEC?

If you are 100% legal then just state it. If not, then just accept the criticism for what it is.

I am in Cali, if you were here no other contractor can pull a permit for you. They can't sub out work unless it is to another licensed contractor, and even then there are issues that may cause them to be employees.

We can only go off of what you're saying, and it seems that you said another contractor is pulling permits for you to do the work. Is that legal where you are at? (Not will if fly, but is it legal?)
I have stated such in two posts already on this thread.

What more do you need to be "legit" than a registered business, a permit, wsib, insurance, and to pay taxes like everyone else?

The way it works here is a master can only pull permits for one company. That company can sub out whatever work they want. You can work directly for the company as a journey person, or you can be a sub. I've also brought jobs to my employers who were masters and split jobs with them. I've solicited work and priced jobs for other ECs. I have a construction business as well that doesn't require electrical permits. I've had maintenece contracts and done freelance programming and robotic work as well.

The list goes on from there.

I got a job this week to anchor stock shelves to the floor in a warehouse. Don't need an electrical permit for that but since I'm an electrician anyway I certainly have a kango in the truck.

I'm sorry but you guys seem pretty ignorant for assuming a lot of stuff. No one is special for running a legit business.

Maybe you guys can go back to running your business' since you don't have any contributions to my original post. If anyone else does I'd be happy to hear your advice on how I can manage a business on the side while working full time, since I'm used to being there all the time and now I am not.

I've never hired people to help me run my business, just a couple young guys that I run on my jobs. I'm looking to expand in a kind of way where I can have guys doing most of the leg work for me.

I realize it's not easy having guys do that, which is why I'm looking for advice on that specifically. Not how to make my business "legit".

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Old 12-08-2018, 01:45 AM   #16
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Not how to make my business "legit".
These are your words, not mine. So take this for what it is.

You do not have a business, you have a side job.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:54 AM   #17
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Not how to make my business "legit".
These are your words, not mine. So take this for what it is.

You do not have a business, you have a side job.

I guess that's your opinion. There are a bunch of guys who work here like myself who were running a business and either idled it or closed it when they started here. A few of us still do jobs.

Let's say I wasn't working at the factory and had 30 hours of work per week. Would it still be w side job? Don't think so.

I know people who own several different businesses. From owning a retail store while managing a 20 or 30 unit apartment and still running their electrical company. which one is their side job?

Pretty sure Donald Trump's has several hundred businesses that he owns and runs several of them at a time. All while being the president.

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Old 12-08-2018, 02:02 AM   #18
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Should I mention the beuty service business me and my wife are opening as well or will that make your head explode?
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:12 AM   #19
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@NSC I am sorry... You are God, you are Awesome, nothing compares to "YOU"!!!!!!

I am not a Trump fan, not now, not ever. I don't normally say anything regarding politics, but you are clearly as arrogant as that ass is, so I guess your comparison is spot on.

And to all of you Trump supporters on this site, no offense intended.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:44 AM   #20
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@NSC I am sorry... You are God, you are Awesome, nothing compares to "YOU"!!!!!!

I am not a Trump fan, not now, not ever. I don't normally say anything regarding politics, but you are clearly as arrogant as that ass is, so I guess your comparison is spot on.

And to all of you Trump supporters on this site, no offense intended.
Ok there you have it. When your argument has been reduced to mere insults I think it proves it's validity. I'm not a trump supporter I just assume most people know who he is so it makes for an easy point.
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