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Old 12-08-2018, 02:46 AM   #21
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Any j-man or master that's sitting in the cat bird's seat should never consider side work as a quasi-contractor or as a part-time talent in his own field. ( ie be an electrician outside normal hours. )

The PLAY is always the same for every man: Real Estate improvement is the side action one should pursue. Plainly the OP has been sitting on his hands missing a fantastic run in Canadian real estate. The bubble is now popping, so I'd start shopping for "completion disasters."

[ A completion disaster is a job that is losing its financing: over budget or the bank is pulling back because the regulators are jumping all over them. The result is that a building that might be 80% complete is headed for bankruptcy court. This is where a clever player picks up properties due to this distress. Mega fortunes have been made in one-lifetime by this one single technique. ]

The biggest EC in Greater Sacramento used this gambit to stuff real estate into the retirement fund of the top key players. ( management ) Years later, it was this real estate that provided virtually all of his retirement income. He left the enterprise to his son -- not quite a gift -- but certainly on the basis of leverage that would otherwise not have been to hand.

THIS is the retirement scheme that EVERY EC should seriously contemplate over his full career.

It's especially attractive during RE booms -- but can be adapted during the fall out -- since you, yourself, are a contractor. The average real estate player is in absolutely no position to actually complete a troubled project. They don't have any contacts and sure as heck don't know what's up.

By comparison, actual electrical work is dog-eat-dog. Absolutely no-one makes it to millionaire acres because they saved up ten percent of their wages. Even the IBEW retirement fund can't compete with a massive slug of passive rental income.

Most ECs would want plain vanilla Commercial Real Estate in their retirement fund. That might include major apartment buildings, too. It depends upon your expertise, the market, and what falls your way.

The dream take-out is to go to bankruptcy court as a lien holder and buy the entire structure, refi it, and complete it. The numbers work because it's your own EXTRAS that have exploded the developer's budget. Yes, this happens ALL THE TIME. You may only run into such deals once or twice in a life-time. But they can be big enough to feather your nest for life.

ALL of the significant ECs in Greater Sacramento play at this game. They are really in the real estate development// improvement business.

BTW, this is the economic logic of McDonald's -- the hamburger folks. They are really LANDLORDS -- not burger flippers. Every Big Mac is converted to rental income for Big Daddy.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:57 AM   #22
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Any j-man or master that's sitting in the cat bird's seat should never consider side work as a quasi-contractor or as a part-time talent in his own field. ( ie be an electrician outside normal hours. )

The PLAY is always the same for every man: Real Estate improvement is the side action one should pursue. Plainly the OP has been sitting on his hands missing a fantastic run in Canadian real estate. The bubble is now popping, so I'd start shopping for "completion disasters."

[ A completion disaster is a job that is losing its financing: over budget or the bank is pulling back because the regulators are jumping all over them. The result is that a building that might be 80% complete is headed for bankruptcy court. This is where a clever player picks up properties due to this distress. Mega fortunes have been made in one-lifetime by this one single technique. ]

The biggest EC in Greater Sacramento used this gambit to stuff real estate into the retirement fund of the top key players. ( management ) Years later, it was this real estate that provided virtually all of his retirement income. He left the enterprise to his son -- not quite a gift -- but certainly on the basis of leverage that would otherwise not have been to hand.

THIS is the retirement scheme that EVERY EC should seriously contemplate over his full career.

It's especially attractive during RE booms -- but can be adapted during the fall out -- since you, yourself, are a contractor. The average real estate player is in absolutely no position to actually complete a troubled project. They don't have any contacts and sure as heck don't know what's up.

By comparison, actual electrical work is dog-eat-dog. Absolutely no-one makes it to millionaire acres because they saved up ten percent of their wages. Even the IBEW retirement fund can't compete with a massive slug of passive rental income.

Most ECs would want plain vanilla Commercial Real Estate in their retirement fund. That might include major apartment buildings, too. It depends upon your expertise, the market, and what falls your way.

The dream take-out is to go to bankruptcy court as a lien holder and buy the entire structure, refi it, and complete it. The numbers work because it's your own EXTRAS that have exploded the developer's budget. Yes, this happens ALL THE TIME. You may only run into such deals once or twice in a life-time. But they can be big enough to feather your nest for life.

ALL of the significant ECs in Greater Sacramento play at this game. They are really in the real estate development// improvement business.

BTW, this is the economic logic of McDonald's -- the hamburger folks. They are really LANDLORDS -- not burger flippers. Every Big Mac is converted to rental income for Big Daddy.

I think youre 100% right telsa and I appreciate your advice. I do enjoy my side work but certainly it is small apples compared to what else is out there.

A lot of headache and such as well. I have a few friends who are into the real estate stuff, brokering contracts, buying distressed sellers homes, buying a flipping, buying and renting out or buying and managing large buildings.

I've even taken courses for this stuff as well but never went into it because like you said the market seems to be at a high peak right now.

What you mentioned seems very interesting about disaster completion jobs. I appreciate your advice, it's probably the only constructive post on this thread this far besides your other one.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:15 AM   #23
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@NSC I think your additional comments better clarify the situation; you are right I made a number of assumptions and some of them were false and some were true.

I also appreciate @Switched support, like me he really has no dog in the race, but was able to see the gaps in the original story. In general the people on this forum are quite supportive; but most are brutal on people that casually stroll through and plant some seeds of impropriety (or at least implied impropriety).
Now if you started out with saying that you want to run a small business in “construction” or “flipping” or whatever, I know there is lots of people on here that are doing that, including me. I own several companies in property management, consulting, software development, etc, as well as electrical contracting. I also have a couple others that are sitting “on the shelf” waiting for my next opportunity.

Of course the issue is that in your original post you focused on “electrical side jobs”. So quite simply you may have a legal company (you may have many of them), but from what I see you do not have a legal Licensed Electrical Contracting (LEC) company sanctioned by the Electrical Contractors Registration Agency (ECRA), which is a requirement in the province of Ontario.

I could care less (from a personal perspective) what you do in your off hours, and I am one of the guys that supports the development of small business – there is tons of money to be had. What I don’t like is when people don’t play by the rules. I get there is a time during transition where you can’t follow or don’t know the rules – totally different then working your business around the rules, and this is part of risk management.

Hopefully one last note on this before we hopefully move to a more positive tone... I will guarantee you that your ideas and comments are not correct about the relationship between the LEC and other workings and other parts of the process are. I have personally seen and been involved with companies (mostly GCs that try to skirt the rules) that have been crushed by the “dog on a bone” mentality of the ESA, ECRA, MOL, OCOT and WSIB; they are brutal and relentless as they should be.

What is your ECRA #? If you don’t have one, you are not an LEC period. You are either working for an LEC or doing illegal electrical work; there is no way around that.

You say you have insurance, great but does it specify electrical work? Technically it can’t because you are not an LEC and therefore cannot do electrical work so you can’t get insurance. If there is a situation related to electrical and you have no permit and scope of work for your insurance covers specifically for electrical work, your $150K job will not even be close to covering your issues; you and your family will be screwed.

A registered electrical apprentice must work for an LEC to gain accredited hours; who is your apprentice registered with? An apprentice cannot be accredited hours working for “ABC Landscaping” if they are not an LEC.

You say you get another LEC to pull permits, that is fine; then they become the registered LEC for the project and while you might be “subbed by them” to do the work, you are technically working for them. Even if you are the GC on a job, and you want to do the electrical work yourself, the other LEC is the registered LEC for the job. You really need to read and understand the situation you and the other LEC(s) may be in by operating this way. If nothing else, formalize the relationship as having you on the books as a part-time employee or something and run all the electrical through them.

There are dozens of pages on the ESA website that covers all the fines and penalties that have been applied over the years in your very situation. These issues lead to other organizations such as WSIB, OCOT, CRA, etc starting to look closely into your operations and they have an endless pot of money to follow every single spider web strand; and they love to.

Cheers
John
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:48 AM   #24
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@NSC Hopefully something more positive...

From you additional posts you state that you have insurance and WSIB, HST, etc so you seem to be well on your way to getting the groundwork completed for a new small business.

As @telsa alludes to, what is the business you want? It sounds like you have some business(es) already so why are you not building and growing them? My original business was not in electrical contracting (even though I was a Master Electrician), my business was outside the electrical world.

There is a series of books that are often mentioned on here by the author named Michael Gerber; and one of his constructs is that you will struggle if you are the Manager, Technician and the Entrepreneur all the time; I am really being quite broad in those comments because there is a lot more to what he has to say. That is one of the reasons that @telsa is correct that many people look to other forms of “investment” or “income” outside the area they are a good technician in. While is does sound counter-intuitive, if you are a good technician it is hard to let that go to be the good “business owner”.

Why outside of the technical expertise? I am not saying that not the right fit for everyone, but this is a physically demanding job that takes far more time in the office as it grows then anyone thinks. The big hurdle is that you need to change your thinking from working for the money to having the money work for you. Even being GC, if you are still out there doing the work (which all of us have to do at some point in the beginning) you are becoming a technician again. So give you an example, I bought a shop last year, and my intention is to put a second floor and some apartments on the second floor. I will do some of the work, but the intent is to take the money I have “earned” and put it into a rental development that I will have little to manage every month. Yes I put in some “sweat equality” and some financial equinity, but if I decide to flip the building or keep it as a revenue stream I am making money; more money than my small electrical contracting business would make with the same effort and time. Oh by the way, my electrical company will make some money too because I will hire them to do the electrical work, my property management company will make money because I will hire them to deal with the finished property and my rental company will make money because we will use the equity to do it again. Oh and I get to write most of it off so I am not crushed in income tax... win – win – win.

Cheers
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Old 12-11-2018, 03:06 AM   #25
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The Big Money is made when you leave your comfort zone....

The dominant reason that ECs// J-man miss out on real estate booms -- time and time, again -- is because they're afraid.

To make it Big you have to leave your comfort zone.

BTW, real estate is shockingly simple on the financials.

Interest rates, financing, leverage, risk, cash flow, all of this junk is a SNAP to toss into a spreadsheet -- with no end of publications detailing how.

Everybody is working to the same beat, the same dance.

Stop thinking that one makes money by out-negotiating the other parties.

That's the BS used to sell books and pack seminars.

The primary source of real estate profit is the deliberate (government driven) destruction of the currency. This causes the loans set against income producing real estate to fade away in real terms. THAT'S the true source of real estate appreciation.

Just don't go crazy on the leverage// financing -- and don't buy at the wrong time in the business cycle -- like right now.

Only after you've got your ducks in a row can you get clever and start 'getting tricky' with disaster completion buyouts. Those require outstanding credit with bankers -- as you're taking a turd off their hands. It may be a turd solely because the regulators have cut off funding. This happens in EVERY business cycle.

It's not something that hits the financial press. They deliberately keep this pressure hidden from public view.

( My BIL is a banker// banker's auditor. His role was to deliver the bad news. So, the dope I'm giving you is coming from the inside experts. My sister is a retired Federal Reserve bank examiner. That's a banker's equivalent to a Yale law degree. )
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:26 AM   #26
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Benefits are ok... Can always buy your own. Pension is self defined, company matches up to 6%. Rrsp self contributed. So pension I'd be missing on a couple thousand a year and benefits I'd have to find out an exact amount so that is good advice.
I think you'll find most guys in business started up there endeavor as a side business while employed fulltime just for the benefits (medical/retirement/etc), that is unless their spouse's job provided benefits for the family.
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:51 PM   #27
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Ya I certainly have my hands in a few things. In terms of my side business I just have a lot of people asking me to work for them. They are willing to pay me well and I turn down and unsavory jobs.

Like I said before I tried closing my business when I started but still get a lot of calls for a lot of different kind of work. I stated in my original post o want to transition into doing electrical work once I get my license. Until then I still have old bosses I complete jobs for under their license and a couple guys who pull permits for me. If I work under them for now so be it... I don't believe I really have a choice while wanting to remain above board.

Why don't I focus on one thing? Ok ell my wife manages most of her business I just help her in the areas she lacks expertise and I do it out of the kindness of my heart. It's her business and I don't really benefit from it except the odd time she takes me out to dinner 😁

And yea I had no problem getting insurance for electrical work specifically and construction work as well. 2 mill gen liability.You're right in that I don't have my own masters license that's exactly what my original post was about. The apprentice helps me with all kinds of stuff and I will have no problem signing him up and retroactively signing all his hours and I've even hooked him up with two other contractors in the mean time.
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:33 AM   #28
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I have several masters that pull permits for me. I doubt ECs pull permits for every chandelier you change. I've been running my business for over 6 years "moonlighting" while I was working for this company and several before them. No one seemed to mind as long as I showed up to work. Always preferred my own jobs as they were much slower and less stress. I was never under the pressure of meeting the boss' demands.

Also since you don't seem to be aware of how all our laws and rules work anyone can sign any hours they want as long as it's on a letterhead.

When you say getting into real estate business do you mean being a builder and supervising all projects?

I've always been of the belief that you can fire a customer as much as you can get fired and have only chosen to work with long repeat customers that I have a good history with. Never once advertised and have many times had to refuse work. Even when I started at the factory I tried to shutter my business and still recieved calls "I know your closed now but can you help me with...". Seems as though my lax attitude, honesty and integrity with my customers has gone a long way. I charge more than average which has prevented me from ever having to nickel and dime a customer to move a plug or come for an extra day.

You're not a legitimate LEC then so stop taking a dump on people who are correctly explaining how it works. A legitimate LEC has either a master as an owner or ONE DME, not multiple masters pulling permits for you.
And John asked you what your LEC number is and you completely ignored him.

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Old 12-14-2018, 07:58 AM   #29
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You're right in that I don't have my own masters license that's exactly what my original post was about. The apprentice helps me with all kinds of stuff and I will have no problem signing him up and retroactively signing all his hours
Does your "apprentice" know this?

This seems really, really bad.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:00 AM   #30
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Should this gambit occur in California -- and be discovered -- the OP would be forever frozen out inre getting his own contractor's license.

The 'System' hates guys like him with a passion.

All of our laws are designed to stop his gambit.

Further, anyone touching him gets the 'infection,' too.

BTW, the persistence of his 'action' is a testimony to his low-ball pricing.

So, he's cheating himself, too.

You can bet that he's got his apprentice working on a totally unsupervised basis.

The pressure to do so must be irresistible.

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Old 12-14-2018, 01:20 PM   #31
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Well I just called our licensing office apparently you only need a journey persons license to become an apprenticeship sponsor. I think you guys are mistaken. I'm not some guy flouting all the rules, I'm running my business within the confines of the rules just like everyone else.

I am able to do work under different masters over the years. I don't believe I've done mutiple ones at the same time but I'm not sure if that would be a problem either. They need to see a permit on the job and you should have inusrance. The you have the taxes and the workers insurance as well. I don't think I ever claimed to be a license LEC myself other than. Journey person. My first post was about getting my masters in a few months. But that doesn't prevent me for carrying out work under other licensed LECs. If you go through my posts there is a couple ways for going about this.

I've had regulating bodies of a couple different types including the electrical authority on my jobs. Everything always checked out.

I've even re read and checked all the regulations again since you guys have brought them up and I still don't see a problem with the type of work I'm carrying out.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:25 PM   #32
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You don't even need a contractor's license in the city I work in.

Separate from an esa license and again they need to see a permit on the job. If your able to coordinate your permit with the licensed LEC and complete the work under them it would be the same situation as an apprentice or jman working for the same guy. The esa doesn't care what money arrangements you have with your boss or business partner or sex partner for all they care. Just that the master is putting their license on the line and ensuring the work is carried out within the scope of the codebook.

And where did you ever get the idea of low-ball pricing? More or less my pricing lines up with medium to medium high for most stuffs.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:29 PM   #33
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NSC, I generally consider Navyguy to be one of those people who when he speaks I shutup and listen.
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:37 PM   #34
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@NSC I am going to try to remain positive here...

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Well I just called our licensing office apparently you only need a journey persons license to become an apprenticeship sponsor. I think you guys are mistaken. I'm not some guy flouting all the rules, I'm running my business within the confines of the rules just like everyone else.
This is simply not true. In Ontario only LECs (and unions) can sponsor an apprentice. Since they have to submit a "Training Agreement" and verify their current holdings of journeymen to comply with the "Training Ratios". You have to be approved (an LEC is automatically approved) to conduct training through the MCTU (or whatever it is called this week).

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I am able to do work under different masters over the years. I don't believe I've done mutiple ones at the same time but I'm not sure if that would be a problem either. They need to see a permit on the job and you should have inusrance. The you have the taxes and the workers insurance as well. I don't think I ever claimed to be a license LEC myself other than. Journey person. My first post was about getting my masters in a few months. But that doesn't prevent me for carrying out work under other licensed LECs. If you go through my posts there is a couple ways for going about this.
Agreed. You can be an "employee" of 100 different LECs at once if you want. To be an employee you do not need insurance, WSIB, etc, you are simply an employee regardless of the type of compensation you receive - too easy

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I've had regulating bodies of a couple different types including the electrical authority on my jobs. Everything always checked out.
Good. This means you are doing quality work. If you happen to get a defect on a job, that defect goes to the company that pulled the permit and may affect their ACP rating or as we move to the "RBO", it may affect that to.

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I've even re read and checked all the regulations again since you guys have brought them up and I still don't see a problem with the type of work I'm carrying out.
I don't think it is what you are doing, but how it was explained / approached. As an electrician you can "work" for any LEC. As a GC you can "hire" any LEC. As an electrician you cannot be an LEC without meeting the requirements of being a Master, have insurance, WSIB, etc, etc. You cannot take any apprentices under training unless you are an LEC either.

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Old 12-14-2018, 04:44 PM   #35
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You don't even need a contractor's license in the city I work in.
In 2007 when they went to provincial Master under the ECRA, that eliminated the requirement for LECs to obtain separate contractor's license in each city / region, etc.

The case is not the same for GCs as each area still have it own requiremnts.

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Separate from an esa license and again they need to see a permit on the job. If your able to coordinate your permit with the licensed LEC and complete the work under them it would be the same situation as an apprentice or jman working for the same guy. The esa doesn't care what money arrangements you have with your boss or business partner or sex partner for all they care. Just that the master is putting their license on the line and ensuring the work is carried out within the scope of the codebook.
Agreed. It is the LEC that carries the risk and not the guy in the field.

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And where did you ever get the idea of low-ball pricing? More or less my pricing lines up with medium to medium high for most stuffs.
I don't recall that being a comment. I would tend to believe from history that people skirting the rules are doing so to avoid things like permit fees, taxes, WSIB, etc which when not applied to the overall balance, it becomes a race to the bottom. Not sure anyone said that in your previous posts; I don't think I said it anyway.

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Old 12-14-2018, 05:04 PM   #36
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BTW, the persistence of his 'action' is a testimony to his low-ball pricing.
I think Telsa was talking in general terms? Which probably would apply to most moonlighters
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:18 PM   #37
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You don't even need a contractor's license in the city I work in.

Separate from an esa license and again they need to see a permit on the job. If your able to coordinate your permit with the licensed LEC and complete the work under them it would be the same situation as an apprentice or jman working for the same guy. The esa doesn't care what money arrangements you have with your boss or business partner or sex partner for all they care. Just that the master is putting their license on the line and ensuring the work is carried out within the scope of the codebook.

And where did you ever get the idea of low-ball pricing? More or less my pricing lines up with medium to medium high for most stuffs.
"A master electrician shall not act in the capacity of a designated master electrician for more than one electrical contractor at a time."

Where are you finding these guys ??
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:30 PM   #38
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I think Telsa was talking in general terms? Which probably would apply to most moonlighters
Most guys in the middle to upper ranges $$$$ don't have the phone ringing off the hook asking for quasi-legal// illegal contractual arrangements.

Instead of taking the Big Leap and making the Big Bread in Real Estate the OP has spent his mental energies working the 'edge of legality' -- however you want to term it.

He shouldn't even be dreaming of doing outside electrical contracting. It's a waste of his time -- as in years left to live.

Canada has just ended her RECORD real estate boom -- and the OP missed it.

He'll NEVER see its equal for the rest of his life. That's how extraordinary it was.

Instead, he's been busy helping OTHER clever people to make the Big Bucks during the real estate mania.

So, not so smart at all.

Now he'll have to wait many, many, many months for ANY real estate gambit.

He's not set up for it, never educated himself for it.

Real estate is the MUST HAVE second career// opportunity for EVERY contractor.

There is NO CHANCE that you're going to make it big on Wall Street// Silicon Valley or Hollywood. It's no matter. Most mega fortunes are made -- slowly -- in real estate.

I give you Donald Trump.

Forget tales of astounding negotiating prowess. That's hype from press agents.

The key to real estate is:

Staying in rhythm with the business cycle... recognizing a one-way market.

A one-way market is what makes investors and speculators look like Einsteins.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:32 PM   #39
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BTW, Wall Street and Real Estate have bull moves that last YEARS.

So what happens?

Idiots sit on the sidelines waiting for the market to tap them on the shoulder.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtnut View Post
"A master electrician shall not act in the capacity of a designated master electrician for more than one electrical contractor at a time."

Where are you finding these guys ??
I interpreted his comments as, he has multiple arrangements with LECs, vice hiring the Master's to maintain his "business". Essentially he is working for several LECs, which he is referring to as Masters; at least the way I understood his comments.

Cheers
John
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