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Do you ever work without a contract?

7K views 48 replies 20 participants last post by  ambrosinibello 
#1 ·


Working without a contract is akin to an acrobat working without a net; it’s a dangerous game. However, the big difference is that acrobats get paid more to work without one. As an electrician, if you don’t have a contract, you have no guarantees of payment at all for the work you do. So, leave the no-net high-wire acts to the Flying Wallendas and use a contract for every job you agree to perform. 5 Consequences of Working Without A Contract
Do you ever work without a contract? Why? Why not?
 
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#8 ·
I can't speak for our US friends ... but up north here EVERYTHING is contestable in civil law court ... a contract doesn't do much there unfortunately.

A contract helps with scope of work, and with payment. So I have used a generic contract with some jobs.

The good side of civil law, is that it can work in the contractors favor as well.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I type (on the computer / not a type writer) a proposal up . Here is an example...

Bedroom 3
(5) residential grade outlet receptacles
(3) residential grade single pole switches
(1) 120 volt / 9 volt BRK smoke detector
(1) ceiling fan-light fixture opening *
(1) ceiling light fixture opening * (walk-in closet)
(NOTE: asterisk = product purchased and delivered to job by others)
(1) Cat 5E IT line
(1) RG6 coaxe line

I do this for every single room in the house , of course quantities
and products change room to room.

I outline model numbers for anything I am providing.
Terms , conditions the works.

I e mail that to the customer. A couple of years ago , I stopped having
verbal discussions over the phone and pretty much corner clients into
e mailing me to conversate about the job.
If we are on the job and they want changes , I have formatted Change Orders that they can sign right in front of me. They get a copy , I get a
copy.
If the changes are too much to figure on the spot...back to e mail it goes.
I start out letting them know e mail is how I communicate. I do not ever
give my cell phone either on the proposals or to the customer. If they
ask , I simply state that the cell is personal use not business use. My e
mail is from my computer @ my desk.

I do this because it is difficult to run people down and get them to sign
apiece of paper. This way all transactions and discussions are on e mail
and documented that way.
 
#12 ·
Per my above post , that is how I do it when I am working directly with a
property owner.

I have very rarely gotten a GC to sign or cooperate with paperwork.
This is what prompted me to discontinue phone(verbal) orders by phone.

To date I have no answer for how to get a GC to sign anything. The only
way to conduct business with them is stay ahead of the curve and do not
let them get ahead of you. If you get lucky and meet a good one.Bend over
backwards for em , they are rare.
 
#22 ·
I think one of the most beneficial things about a contract is that it will help keep you out of court in the first place.

Having a definitive agreement spelled out clearly will make the customer feel better since they are assured of what they are getting. It will stop a shyster type customer from trying to get over on you, he will move on to the next company who uses handshakes. And it will stop a customer who truly feels that you are trying to get over on him due to miscommunication.

Nevermind the fact that we are contractors, it's just the professional thing to do. It's very easy to do as well, even for small jobs. You are going to write up the job at some point, just do it before the work and have them sign it.
 
#23 ·
I think one of the most beneficial things about a contract is that it will help keep you out of court in the first place.
That's the main thing, you prevent the problem by removing the opportunity for the customer to fudge when the work is done.

It also forces the customer to pay attention and nail things down.
 
#24 ·
Much of what I do is for the same people over and over again. I see the value of having the written contract and probably something that you can use over again, basic language probably makes it easier. I've had to do the email and text trail thing with the lawyer and in that case not having any real written contract was to my advantage. The GC wasn't the problem, but the person who purchased the property. Most of what I do is verbal or some email/text discussion of what is to be done. Much of it is smaller tasks. If someone needs an estimate, then I will write something simple up. I don't really work in the GC/ sub world, most of it is direct to the customer even if there is a GC.
 
#26 ·
I don't care if the builder, GC, whatever, marks up my bill as long as I get what I want. I only work for a couple of builders, all small few man outfits, and sometimes they get the bill, sometimes the customer does. Sometimes the extras go to the customer and the original bill to the builder.

None of this is to say I advocate this way to run your business, just how mine happens to work.
 
#28 ·
That is real good if you have GC customer who values you and our trade.
I would hang on to him and work with him for both of your companies
success. It's difficult to find "the good ones" cause they usually are the
ones who know how to treat people.

Right now , I am handling work for a remodel/design company that
is run by a guy and his family. They are a pleasure to work for.

He used to work for the rat race I am referring to as "HBA" GC's.
He decided to handle his own GC duties and is doing very well.
 
#29 ·
The couple of guys I work for produce outstanding results in quality. The customers are already vetted. It's all referral word of mouth stuff. Everyone gets along and while trying to fit in the (for me) the larger jobs and my largely service based work can be chaotic, the pay is there. Not really looking for any more to work with. Tough to keep up when both groups have something going on a the same time.
 
#32 ·
Not once, in 13 yrs have I worked with one. also do not disagree with them. I suppose they have their place. My jobs lately are usually small, like under 5k. Had several around the 20 mark but they were cool folks. I've been very fortunate.

If I can't trust them, it's a no go. Most folks, here anyway, are good for their word.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#38 ·
I've had a few raised eyebrows after repeat customers didn't ask for the price, just how soon can you start. But don't remember anyone asking for a lower price. Sometimes, if I feel they are really put out I'll ask what's it worth to you? Then I'll explain why I charge what I do. They usually get it. They either call me back or not.
Snap-I've been known to just give away time, money, whatever. Especially the elder or less fortunate. Sometimes, they don't know GFCI resets or burned out lamps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#33 ·
I get a signature for approval before I even get my tool belt out of the truck. Even just to replace one light fixture. It never fails, the one time you don't get the signature to approve the price the customer watches you work and hits you with the whole "That went easier than I thought. You got done so fast, I should only have to pay you $xx instead of the $xxx you are asking for." :vs_mad:
 
#35 ·
Again, a piece of paper is worthless.

I've been to sm claims many times, it's engineered for ease and speed.

Go in, present your 'contract' get a judgement

One can then enter a judgment into a mechanics lien

One can also lien multiple properties owned by the same entity said judgement is against

One can solicit collectors of all sorts , who serve as no more than spam

Never give ^^^^ them $$$, you'll never hear from them again if you do

Further, If you've liened a biz that's claimed bankruptcy, your chances of making good are about that of getting hit by a meteor

Good luck to you folks that what your piece of paper ....

I need green to be seen.....

~CS~
 
#36 ·
Again, a piece of paper is worthless.
No, it's not. It's the way the world works.

As usual, you are being idiotic.

I've been to sm claims many times
I don't doubt that. I'm sure you have been sued by half of your customers.

Pro tip: Bragging about how many times you've been in court doesn't make you look good. But it is what we expect from you.

Good luck to you folks that what your piece of paper ....
That's the whole point, we don't need luck, we have everything spelled out cleanly and neatly. That is what professionals do. Having that contract will prevent people from playing games in the first place. The deterrence factor alone is worth the ink. Nevermind the fact that a contract is a legal requirement in most areas and just plain old good practice.

Not all of us are drunken chicken poop scoopers that wire up flying splices at local farms for a few minutes alone with their goats.
 
#37 ·
A LOT of our work, I'd wager 90%+ comes from our repeat customers without contracts. Electrical scope could vary from replacing a switch in a house to a 2.5 million dollar project.

We're pretty fortunate, we work with customers we know, if we were heavy in residential or in a market with a lot of new customers, I would absolutely push for contracts.
 
#39 ·
We often do emergency rebuilds or flood remediation, contracts are seldom in place as this is emergency work on the fly, up to $250,000.00 in a weekend is possible. We do make sure there is paperwork in place that the customer understands the bills are going to them to be paid by them, not the insurance company.

We are looking into a better document to cover our butts as much as possible.

We do prefer a signed contract.
 
#41 ·
And lets not forget there are contractual variations clients introduce

For ex, there are fixed pricing contracts , and there are T&M estimate contracts

I'm always amazed at the outright moxie folks have mistaking or wanting to morph one to the other

Proof so few actually READ these things.

~CS~
 
#42 ·
Which brings me to AIA 401K. One of the key provisions every sub misses is it's referral to the 'main contract', which subs rarely see. You may find, for ex., that's you've already waved your right to lien w/out ever reading it.

~CS~
 
#44 ·
For those of us that have gone through the 'litigant grinder' it is far less worthy that $$$ , if you can grasp 'bird in hand' Hax

That said , i did gain ground on my AIA 401K redux , told the GC i was going to alter it , and he signed it

And , no , he didn't read the alterations i made, but my lawyer sure did!

:vs_cool:

~CS~
 
#45 · (Edited)
Always have a contract.
You should have something that states what your scope of work is and what your price for that scope of work is and what you are not responsible for
Its required in my state to have a contract for $1000 plus job
https://www.mass.gov/service-details/required-contract-terms-in-a-home-improvement-contract


BUT I see no reason to have NOT one for a smaller job also. Last thing anyone needs is for some home owner to say I am not paying you because you put holes in my walls and didnt fix them etc etc etc.
 
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