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Old 05-17-2019, 10:18 AM   #41
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Here, the requirement is for a full size bond wire so we use isolated ground cable. We end up with two bond wires although only one is actually required.
Our code requires the metallic protection itself be a grounding means. So we couldn't pull two ground wires in a PVC pipe, for example, and be compliant.

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On flex over 6’ the flex doesn’t count as a ground?

I have always pulled an insulated ground in every raceway, even RMC, for as long as I can remember.
FMC is only allowed as a ground in lengths of 6 ft. or shorter, yes. So a 5 ft. flex whip with a ground wire would meet the requirements of 517, but a 10 ft whip would not.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:41 AM   #42
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Our code requires the metallic protection itself be a grounding means. So we couldn't pull two ground wires in a PVC pipe, for example, and be compliant.



FMC is only allowed as a ground in lengths of 6 ft. or shorter, yes. So a 5 ft. flex whip with a ground wire would meet the requirements of 517, but a 10 ft whip would not.

2 grounds in a 6’” 1” flex whip?

I generally avoid using flex and MC. To me, exposed flex and MC are the hallmarks of the handyman with questionable immigration status.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:28 AM   #43
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2 grounds in a 6’” 1” flex whip?
The 6 ft. whip is already a ground.

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I generally avoid using flex and MC. To me, exposed flex and MC are the hallmarks of the handyman with questionable immigration status.
I thought that was exposed Romex?
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:45 AM   #44
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Our code requires the metallic protection itself be a grounding means. So we couldn't pull two ground wires in a PVC pipe, for example, and be compliant.



FMC is only allowed as a ground in lengths of 6 ft. or shorter, yes. So a 5 ft. flex whip with a ground wire would meet the requirements of 517, but a 10 ft whip would not.
What is the reasoning for having metallic protection as the only acceptable ground? Isn’t a dedicated conductor better?
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:52 AM   #45
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What is the reasoning for having metallic protection as the only acceptable ground? Isn’t a dedicated conductor better?
You need both for redundancy.

I’m not sure why they don’t allow two conductors, maybe it’s because they believe if someone went in there and removed one grounding conductor they would also remove the second one. Having the raceway or cable bonded would be more likely to have that ground intact.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:53 AM   #46
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What is the reasoning for having metallic protection as the only acceptable ground? Isn’t a dedicated conductor better?
I don't really know... Maybe because conductors can be disconnected more easily than conduit?
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:02 PM   #47
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On flex over 6’ the flex doesn’t count as a ground?

I have always pulled an insulated ground in every raceway, even RMC, for as long as I can remember.
For healthcare facility use, your raceway or cable must qualify as in equipment ground in addition to the requirement for a full size insulated grounding conductor. Metal flex is only considered an equipment grounding conductor if 6 feet or less.
I used to pull grounds for everything. My opinion now is (not for healthcare) if the conduit/boxes are attached to building steel, they are already redundant grounded. The extra green wire in that case will not add a bit of safety and will just take profit from my job



250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding Conductors.

(5) Listed flexible metal conduit meeting all the following conditions:

The conduit is terminated in listed fittings.

The circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less.

The size of the conduit does not exceed metric designator 35 (trade size 1 ¼).

The combined length of flexible metal conduit and flexible metallic tubing and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground-fault current path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft).

If used to connect equipment where flexibility is necessary to minimize the transmission of vibration from equipment or to provide flexibility for equipment that requires movement after installation, an equipment grounding conductor shall be installed.
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:26 PM   #48
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if the conduit/boxes are attached to building steel, they are already redundant grounded. The extra green wire in that case will not add a bit of safety and will just take profit from my job


We have all seen boxes ripped off walls by forklifts or other equipment and hanging by the wires.


I just always run an insulated ground and never gave much more thought to it
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:36 PM   #49
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We have all seen boxes ripped off walls by forklifts or other equipment and hanging by the wires.


I just always run an insulated ground and never gave much more thought to it
You can't help what might happen in the future. If something is hanging by the wires and they continue to use it, that's on them. If a roll of #12 green THHN is $60, that's $12 you're losing for every 100 feet of pipe you run. Imagine all that money going in your pocket instead!
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:08 PM   #50
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You need both for redundancy.

I’m not sure why they don’t allow two conductors, maybe it’s because they believe if someone went in there and removed one grounding conductor they would also remove the second one. Having the raceway or cable bonded would be more likely to have that ground intact.
Makes sense but it kinda sounds like they’re going down the “What if?” rabbit hole.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:10 PM   #51
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to me, 14/2 romex, blue boxes, tape holding the wire nuts on and no covers are the hallmarks of the handyman with questionable immigration status.

ftfy
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:17 PM   #52
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Makes sense but it kinda sounds like they’re going down the “What if?” rabbit hole.
They are, that's the point of the redundancy. They feel it is worth it in hospital and similar settings.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:23 PM   #53
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Makes sense but it kinda sounds like they’re going down the “What if?” rabbit hole.

Objectively speaking, about 99% of the NEC is in preparation for “what if’s”

If not for “what if’s” we’d still be running knob and tube.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:30 PM   #54
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Objectively speaking, about 99% of the NEC is in preparation for “what if’s”

If not for “what if’s” we’d still be running knob and tube.
Speaking of knob and tube, where can I buy some? I need about twenty feet.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:32 PM   #55
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Speaking of knob and tube, where can I buy some? I need about twenty feet.
They only sell it in 250 foot rolls. It's $209 a roll.

Wait, what was this thread about again?
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:55 PM   #56
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to me, 14/2 romex, blue boxes, tape holding the wire nuts on and no covers are the hallmarks of the handyman with questionable immigration status.
I run my lighting in #14 NM, With LED loads these days, there is no reason under the sun to run residential lighting in #12 and the can lights make up so much faster and easier in #14

#14 Romex es me gusto!
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:32 PM   #57
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Makes sense but it kinda sounds like they’re going down the “What if?” rabbit hole.
I don't think so. I read somewhere about the electrical shocks and electrocution that occurred when monitoring equipment started being used in hospitals. Even the normal amount of leakage current can be hazardous to someone with their skin breached by needles and electrodes. And people unconscious and unable to help themselves? Forget about it.

There's plenty of places in the code to skimp or save. Swimming pools and hospitals aren't on the list.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:56 PM   #58
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https://www.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cabl...2-00/204794276

$211.19 at HD

I never compared HD prices to supply houses on AFC products so I don't know if I could do better, but that's the most I'd have to pay.

I asked today while ordering some other stuff, just out of curiosity, and it was $171 at the supply house.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:45 AM   #59
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I run my lighting in #14 NM, With LED loads these days, there is no reason under the sun to run residential lighting in #12 and the can lights make up so much faster and easier in #14

#14 Romex es me gusto!
There has never been any good reason to run #12 for residential lighting circuits.

I had to do it back in the days when I contracted townhouse projects. Job specs. It sucks. And retrofit to those jobs sucks even more. I tolerate #12 for lighting circuits in commercial, if specified, but then I usually try to get away with using 15 amp breakers and #14 gauge wire in the conduit, or else buy 14-2 and 14-3 mc cable. 12 sucks for residential lighting. Yes, I said it twice.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:12 PM   #60
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That would be about right then considering the Matson Boat has to bring it out to us.


Sounds about right to me. I think it's called the price of living in something something.


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