8 AWG grounding conductor on Spa - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-18-2019, 07:03 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
WPNortheast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: CT
Posts: 263
Rewards Points: 168
Default 8 AWG grounding conductor on Spa

Hey everybody. I've got a spa install where the requirements are 50 amp 240 volt 4 wire with and 8 AWG grounding conductor required. How do you fellas skin a cat like this? My first thought was to run 2 2 2 4 scr to the main panel and put a 12 space main lug by the entrance to the crawl space. Then run sealtite with the necessary conductors from a 50 amp breaker in the Sub, to the outdoor GFCI disconnect. Then from the disconnect to the spa. Is this Overkill and is there an easier way? Or should I roll with this. Thanks everybody have a blessed day
WPNortheast is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-18-2019, 07:40 AM   #2
Sentimental Mental
 
CTshockhazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 957
Rewards Points: 1,398
Default Sure it's 8?

I've seen them call for (the extra waste of cu) 6 AWG. I believe it's purely a listing thing for the actual connection in the tub.

I'm only kowtowing to their silly whim between the disco and the spa itself. 10 AWG is more than sufficient to clear a fault at 50A.
__________________
.
__________________________________________________

I have the attention span of a
CTshockhazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 08:04 AM   #3
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,049
Rewards Points: 1,164
Default

I usually just try to run pvc all the way. In most cases, we can do that thru a crawl space right to the spa disconnect.
HackWork likes this.
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-18-2019, 08:07 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 32,496
Rewards Points: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
I usually just try to run pvc all the way. In most cases, we can do that thru a crawl space right to the spa disconnect.
Yeah, PVC pipe is very easy to install the way it is partially flexible and can make sweeping bends around things.
__________________
I'm trying to think, but nothing happens.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 08:53 AM   #5
zac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,906
Rewards Points: 814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTshockhazard View Post
I've seen them call for (the extra waste of cu) 6 AWG. I believe it's purely a listing thing for the actual connection in the tub.

I'm only kowtowing to their silly whim between the disco and the spa itself. 10 AWG is more than sufficient to clear a fault at 50A.
I've had one call for #4 if over 75'.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
zac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 10:17 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 72
Rewards Points: 144
Default

Feeders to a panel that supplies pool equipment or by extension a Hot Tub have to meet 680.25.A. No NM cable or SER. In other words a conduit system or MC cable. Also EGC has to be insulated. Then ask if the wiring method between the sub panel and the Hot Tub disconnect is a feeder or a branch circuit. A branch circuit that is installed indoors can be Cable.
kb1jb1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 10:51 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
sbrn33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle america
Posts: 11,416
Rewards Points: 3,232
Default

99.9% of spas are portable so just run 6-3 NM.
sbrn33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 11:06 AM   #8
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,049
Rewards Points: 1,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrn33 View Post
99.9% of spas are portable so just run 6-3 NM.
The op is saying that the specs are requiring a number 8 equipment grounding conductor. Not going to happen with NM unless you can find a 6/5 nm and eliminate the equipment grounding conductor and use one of the other conductors.
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 11:18 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
sbrn33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle america
Posts: 11,416
Rewards Points: 3,232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
The op is saying that the specs are requiring a number 8 equipment grounding conductor. Not going to happen with NM unless you can find a 6/5 nm and eliminate the equipment grounding conductor and use one of the other conductors.
No he said requirements. I am assuming that he is talking NEC. The NEC does not require a #8 for a portable hot tub.
sbrn33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 11:19 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
sbrn33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle america
Posts: 11,416
Rewards Points: 3,232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1jb1 View Post
Feeders to a panel that supplies pool equipment or by extension a Hot Tub have to meet 680.25.A. No NM cable or SER. In other words a conduit system or MC cable. Also EGC has to be insulated. Then ask if the wiring method between the sub panel and the Hot Tub disconnect is a feeder or a branch circuit. A branch circuit that is installed indoors can be Cable.
A hot tub is not a pool.
Signal1 likes this.
sbrn33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 02:24 PM   #11
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,049
Rewards Points: 1,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrn33 View Post
No he said requirements. I am assuming that he is talking NEC. The NEC does not require a #8 for a portable hot tub.
The nec doesn't require the equipment grounding conductor to be larger than 250.122. But if the manufacturer states #8 then you need to use #8.

I don't think the op is talking about the equipotential bonding. At least that is not what I responded to...
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 10:11 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 72
Rewards Points: 144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrn33 View Post
A hot tub is not a pool.
Read 680.42 then 680.25. 680.25 falls under part II of 680 so an outdoor Hot Tub is treated like a pool.
kb1jb1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 11:13 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
Switched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: California
Posts: 6,058
Rewards Points: 8,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1jb1 View Post
Read 680.42 then 680.25. 680.25 falls under part II of 680 so an outdoor Hot Tub is treated like a pool.
Pretty sure he's talking about a packaged spa unit, which does not get treated like a pool. 680 part II specifically says "Permanently Installed Pools". A packaged unit is considered portable and not permanent.
sbrn33 likes this.
Switched is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Switched For This Useful Post:
Dan the electricman (06-20-2019)
Old 06-20-2019, 05:05 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 72
Rewards Points: 144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switched View Post
Pretty sure he's talking about a packaged spa unit, which does not get treated like a pool. 680 part II specifically says "Permanently Installed Pools". A packaged unit is considered portable and not permanent.
680.42 talks about outdoor installations of Hot Tubs. They must conform to Provisions of Parts I and II of 680. Part II - 680.25 talks about feeders. So if a feeder is supplying a panel that feeds a Hot Tub, then the feeder needs to follow 680.25.A. The way the NEC 2014 Analysis book reads is that the exception for existing panels was removed. Very very important for anybody who wires a pool or Hot Tub from an " existing " sub-panel.
kb1jb1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 07:53 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
WPNortheast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: CT
Posts: 263
Rewards Points: 168
Default

200 amp main lug fed from meter main, has breaker for spa gfci disconnect, which also has breaker.
You really think its a code violation for that cable feeding the 200 amp main lug to be SER? Absolute nonsense
WPNortheast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 10:07 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
HertzHound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: East coast
Posts: 389
Rewards Points: 602
Default

I think what he means is that in the past it was common to install a sub panel and get an inspection. A week latter add the pool or hot tub off of the sub panel. This was how it was done to avoid having the insulated ground run to the sub panel.



If the sub panel was existing, it was allowed to not have the insulated ground. Some inspectors would allow you pull a separate permit for the panel if they saw that you missed the insulated ground. Later they would come back and inspect the pool.
kb1jb1 likes this.
__________________
Why say lot words when few words do trick
HertzHound is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to HertzHound For This Useful Post:
kb1jb1 (06-20-2019)
Old 06-20-2019, 11:12 PM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 72
Rewards Points: 144
Default

Do people here read the current NEC and the Analysis book? I am talking about panels that feed pool equipment. I also recommend the IEAI book, " One and Two Family Dwelling Electrical Systems." It has many explanations, examples, and pictures. The IAEI certifies many electrical inspectors and this is their reference book. I am only quoting what the books say. If I follow the written guidelines, then I should not get blamed for when things go wrong. The expression, " going by the book.".
kb1jb1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 04:57 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
WPNortheast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: CT
Posts: 263
Rewards Points: 168
Default

Your right from my reading the nec. Wow what a shocker thanks. I’m glad I’ve only installed the SER, I’m going to replace it with copper in LFNC at 2.20 a foot. :-/ safety 1st
WPNortheast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 07:34 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 32,496
Rewards Points: 143
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1jb1 View Post
Do people here read the current NEC and the Analysis book? I am talking about panels that feed pool equipment. I also recommend the IEAI book, " One and Two Family Dwelling Electrical Systems." It has many explanations, examples, and pictures. The IAEI certifies many electrical inspectors and this is their reference book. I am only quoting what the books say. If I follow the written guidelines, then I should not get blamed for when things go wrong. The expression, " going by the book.".
I've never heard of this Analysis book.

What happens in the situation of an outside service disconnect feeding an inside main panel with SER cable? They can't install a pool in their house without changing that cable feeding their entire house?
__________________
I'm trying to think, but nothing happens.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 08:20 AM   #20
Sentimental Mental
 
CTshockhazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 957
Rewards Points: 1,398
Default OP is on 2017 NEC

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb1jb1 View Post
Do people here read the current NEC and the Analysis book? I am talking about panels that feed pool equipment. I also recommend the IEAI book, " One and Two Family Dwelling Electrical Systems." It has many explanations, examples, and pictures. The IAEI certifies many electrical inspectors and this is their reference book. I am only quoting what the books say. If I follow the written guidelines, then I should not get blamed for when things go wrong. The expression, " going by the book.".

Here's the current:


Quote:
2017 NEC


680.14 Corrosive Environment.
(A) General. Areas where pool sanitation chemicals are
stored, as well as areas with circulation pumps, automatic chlorinators,
filters, open areas under decks adjacent to or abutting
the pool structure, and similar locations shall be considered to
be a corrosive environment. The air in such areas shall be
considered to be laden with acid, chlorine, and bromine
vapors, or any combination of acid, chlorine, or bromine
vapors, and any liquids or condensation in those areas shall be
considered to be laden with acids, chlorine, and bromine
vapors, or any combination of acid, chlorine, or bromine
vapors.
(B) Wiring Methods. Wiring methods in the areas described
in 680.14(A) shall be listed and identified for use in such areas.
Rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl
chloride conduit, and reinforced thermosetting resin
conduit shall be considered to be resistant to the corrosive
environment specified in 680.14(A).

680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder on
the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for
pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the
load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately
derived system.

(A) Feeders. Where feeders are installed in corrosive environments
as described in 680.14, the wiring method of that
portion of the feeder shall be as required in 680.14(B) or shall
be liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit. Wiring methods
installed in corrosive environments as described in 680.14 shall
contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor
sized in accordance with Table 250.122, but not smaller than
12 AWG.
Where installed in noncorrosive environments, feeders shall
comply with the general requirements in Chapter 3.


(B) Aluminum Conduit. Aluminum conduit shall not be
permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.

680.42 Outdoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed
outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of
this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that
would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a dwelling unit or in the interior of another building or
structure associated with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring
methods recognized or permitted in Chapter 3 of this Code
shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor
disconnecting means and the motor, heating, and control loads
that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged
spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater
luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
__________________
.
__________________________________________________

I have the attention span of a
CTshockhazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com