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Old 01-16-2015, 03:10 PM   #1
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Default AFCIs not needed for Parellel Arc Faults

I just don't get why this wasn't applied instead when non combination AFCIs were required. A none combination AFCI looks for a parallel arc fault, but in theory the same protection can be achieved with a lower magnetic trip threshold in a standard thermal magnetic breaker?:


http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit..._of_Safety.pdf

Last edited by meadow; 01-16-2015 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:29 PM   #2
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I just don't get why this wasn't applied instead when non combination AFCIs were required. A none combination AFCI looks for a parallel arc fault, but in theory the same protection can be achieved with a lower magnetic trip threshold in a standard thermal magnetic breaker?:


http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit..._of_Safety.pdf
welcome to the new world order. it only gets better and better.

I have been nagged by these same feelings for years now meadow, Other than FPE breakers, short circuit current protection has worked well for a very long time now.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:36 PM   #3
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Who cares? We're well past that Era anyway.
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Old 01-16-2015, 05:45 PM   #4
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welcome to the new world order. it only gets better and better.

I have been nagged by these same feelings for years now meadow, Other than FPE breakers, short circuit current protection has worked well for a very long time now.
Same here

From the article all that's needed for parallel arc protection is lowering the magnetic trip to about 100 amps. Considering nearly all general use loads lack large motors inrush isn't all that much of a problem. QO has already done it, they trip at about 5 to 6 times the handle rating.


Also, the article makes a point that a lot of this isn't even cords but overdriven staples/damaged NM in the wall itself.
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:35 PM   #5
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Same here

From the article all that's needed for parallel arc protection is lowering the magnetic trip to about 100 amps. Considering nearly all general use loads lack large motors inrush isn't all that much of a problem. QO has already done it, they trip at about 5 to 6 times the handle rating.


Also, the article makes a point that a lot of this isn't even cords but overdriven staples/damaged NM in the wall itself.

I don't buy into it. Not trained electricians at least. Maybe the guys hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot, or cheap homeowners who would rather the house burns down than cough up a reasonable fee for electrical work.
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:41 PM   #6
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I don't buy into it. Not trained electricians at least. Maybe the guys hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot, or cheap homeowners who would rather the house burns down than cough up a reasonable fee for electrical work.
Explain
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:42 PM   #7
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I don't buy into it. Not trained electricians at least. Maybe the guys hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot, or cheap homeowners who would rather the house burns down than cough up a reasonable fee for electrical work.
They just want to keep stupid , cheap and ignorant people living longer. I say let them off themselves by their own ways.
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:46 PM   #8
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everything on planet earth must be new and improved...re-inventing the wheel in action.
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:47 PM   #9
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They just want to keep stupid , cheap and ignorant people living longer. I say let them off themselves by their own ways.
That would be half my clients!
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Old 01-16-2015, 08:18 PM   #10
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They just want to keep stupid , cheap and ignorant people living longer. I say let them off themselves by their own ways.
Unfortunately some of those people are doing work on homes other live in
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Old 01-16-2015, 08:34 PM   #11
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That the 'let through here is 27X , and 5X across the pond is distressing news (and it's old news, as the art hails from 1990)

That said, a graduated OCPD response makes the most sense , and is probably the least nuisance.

~CS~
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:01 PM   #12
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That the 'let through here is 27X , and 5X across the pond is distressing news (and it's old news, as the art hails from 1990)

That said, a graduated OCPD response makes the most sense , and is probably the least nuisance.

~CS~
I agree, we speak the same language it seems. If I am not mistaken the European breakers trip at 5x to meet earth fault loop impedance requirements in the IEC, but this seems to have a second advantage in that a parallel arc fault will be sensed without any fancy electronics.

Coupled with 30ma RCD protection, a low magnetic trip will catch series arcing faults while 30ma will catch hot to ground arcing faults, NM-B pierced by nails in addition to wiring errors.

Everything a combination AFCI will do minus series arc faults.

But that begs to ask, how much are series arc fault a concern?

One could argue parallel arc fault protection is enhanced in lamp cord with an AFCI, but would a 1amp fuse with an instantaneous blow of 13amps achieve the same?
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Old 01-17-2015, 09:09 AM   #13
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I'm rather confused as to why we have OCPD's that can assume a bigger blast here Meadow.....

Perhaps the mentality would reveal itself reverse engineering it , considering the differences in TT/TN/IT earthings , and subsequent impedance as you've alluded to?

I'm feeling doomed to a career mumbling some 1/2 wit explanation as to why main breakers trip before sub breakers .....

~CS~
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Old 01-17-2015, 01:39 PM   #14
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...
Also, the article makes a point that a lot of this isn't even cords but overdriven staples/damaged NM in the wall itself.
And this UL document makes the point that over driven stapes are not likely to cause a fire.
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:19 PM   #15
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And this UL document makes the point that over driven staples are not likely to cause a fire.
Don,.
while i appreciate the UL info , and it's 50 pages of testing detail , all of these tests are done in or or pristine environments with new materials.

I say this because wood breathes with the seasons , especially true of cold basements with antiquated stone foundations. It'll actually gain in moisture content or likewise loose moisture content , swelling and sagging.

This is why floors squeak, doors don't close , windows won't open ,and why some states mandate insulated staples

~CS~
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:24 PM   #16
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Don,.
while i appreciate the UL info , and it's 50 pages of testing detail , all of these tests are done in or or pristine environments with new materials.

I say this because wood breathes with the seasons , especially true of cold basements with antiquated stone foundations. It'll actually gain in moisture content or likewise loose moisture content , swelling and sagging.

This is why floors squeak, doors don't close , windows won't open ,and why some states mandate insulated staples

~CS~
But in many cases, they had to use high voltage to create a carbon path to even do the arc testing. Makes me wonder a lot about the actual AFCI testing.
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:23 AM   #17
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Which iirc, resulted in their listings 'carbonized' and 'non carbonized' reference, UL-speak for series /parallel.

Both allegedly elicited via arc signature, yet both capable of prior degradation to incendiary levels of glowing connections FIVE TIMES our euro counterparts

or, two wrongs make an ocpd right....

~CS~
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:54 AM   #18
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In other words, AFCI's are the biggest scam ever.
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Old 01-19-2015, 08:01 AM   #19
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Well we've yet another good point toward rationalizing their usage MT , thanks to Meadows tenacity to dig up product specifications i'm embarrased to admit i use daily and had no clue at to applicable validity...

~CS~
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Old 01-19-2015, 08:13 AM   #20
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But in many cases, they had to use high voltage to create a carbon path to even do the arc testing. Makes me wonder a lot about the actual AFCI testing.

True, but if the staple was driven down hard enough it can cause shorting/heating that could cause carbonization.

Further, there is one area UL did not test: pyrophoric carbonization. The current trickles for months even years into the wood until it becomes charcoal. The ignition point is reduced and heating begins.

http://www.mikeholt.com/htmlnews/grounding/un250-66.jpg

I see a lot of round or semi round 14/3 & 12/3 that just gets crushed.




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In other words, AFCI's are the biggest scam ever.

Yup
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