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Old 01-19-2015, 08:26 AM   #21
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Well we've yet another good point toward rationalizing their usage MT , thanks to Meadows tenacity to dig up product specifications i'm embarrased to admit i use daily and had no clue at to applicable validity...

~CS~
I wouldn't even call it tenacity, imo, though you generally tend to more accurate than me. The truth is out there, some very obvious, but why care to point out to those in the trade when some stand to profit so greatly?


The truth is we do have some truths which make for a good foundation of lies to be built up upon. While many good electricians exist there are some ones who are down right sloppy and those few wreck the entire trade. Handyman and DIY hackery is another black eye. Add to the fact a tendency exists that all fires tend to be blamed on electrical in origin without substantial evidence creates a depressing statistic on electrical fires.

Rather than passing common sense code solutions, the facts (no matter how half truth they are) can be used as propaganda to create a profitable "solution"
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:31 AM   #22
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I got into the crawl space on one house once- the rewiring done by others look superb, wires run perfectly straight, you could run an 8 foot level on them, there would have been no deflection. Perfect 90 degree bends. Lovely work. Every single staple was driven in so tight it mashed the sheath and the plastic insulation of the conductors to a permanent flat pancake....... Total rip out required.. My best guess is it had to be a carpenter moonlighting. No electrician would be that stupid to try to bury the staple into the wood.


One more thing- this tard(s) who did it used the 9/16'' staples instead of the 1/2'' ones which made removing them even more difficult.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:44 AM   #23
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I got into the crawl space on one house once- the rewiring done by others look superb, wires run perfectly straight, you could run an 8 foot level on them, there would have been no deflection. Perfect 90 degree bends. Lovely work. Every single staple was driven in so tight it mashed the sheath and the plastic insulation of the conductors to a permanent flat pancake....... Total rip out required.. My best guess is it had to be a carpenter moonlighting. No electrician would be that stupid to try to bury the staple into the wood.


One more thing- this tard(s) who did it used the 9/16'' staples instead of the 1/2'' ones which made removing them even more difficult.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:48 AM   #24
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True, but if the staple was driven down hard enough it can cause shorting/heating that could cause carbonization. ...
But if that happens, an AFCI with a GFP (or even a standard GFCI or GFP breaker) circuit would likely open the circuit before any damage other than the damage to the cable itself could happen.

It really looks like a breaker with a low instantaneous trip and a GFP function would really do everthing they are telling us the AFCI does.
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Old 01-19-2015, 11:18 AM   #25
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But if that happens, an AFCI with a GFP (or even a standard GFCI or GFP breaker) circuit would likely open the circuit before any damage other than the damage to the cable itself could happen.

It really looks like a breaker with a low instantaneous trip and a GFP function would really do everthing they are telling us the AFCI does.
My thoughts exactly. In fact it would do everything minus series arc protection but that would be just a concern for cords. Ok loose connection too but how many are glowing rather than arc?
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Old 01-19-2015, 01:35 PM   #26
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My thoughts exactly. In fact it would do everything minus series arc protection but that would be just a concern for cords. Ok loose connection too but how many are glowing rather than arc?
I have seen no evidence that a series arc can exist for more than one half cycle at dwelling unit voltages without some other forces such as vibration are causing a make and break arc.
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Old 01-19-2015, 02:07 PM   #27
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But how can a regular breaker tell you if a neutral and ground are touching together somewhere?
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Old 01-19-2015, 02:25 PM   #28
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I have seen no evidence that a series arc can exist for more than one half cycle at dwelling unit voltages without some other forces such as vibration are causing a make and break arc.
Does the same hold true even with a carbonized arc path?





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But how can a regular breaker tell you if a neutral and ground are touching together somewhere?

It can not, but a GFP can.
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:43 PM   #29
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I'm rather confused as to why we have OCPD's that can assume a bigger blast here Meadow.....

Perhaps the mentality would reveal itself reverse engineering it , considering the differences in TT/TN/IT earthings , and subsequent impedance as you've alluded to?

I'm feeling doomed to a career mumbling some 1/2 wit explanation as to why main breakers trip before sub breakers .....

~CS~

Earthing systems as well as disconnect times based on short circuits have played a role in this. In the IEC world a breaker must clear a fault within a certain amount of cycles based on the voltage to remote earth of the metal frame while the fault is happening.

Its a safe bet an FPE breaker would fail this requirement, if not the higher magnetic trip breakers.

But, its still a mystery to me why breakers with a 15x rating exist.

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Old 01-19-2015, 04:46 PM   #30
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ok....

So all our equipment has to be rated big AIC , because of our low R paths then meadow? I.E.> Euro OCPD's would go firecrackers in American equipment? ~CS~
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:55 PM   #31
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ok....

So all our equipment has to be rated big AIC , because of our low R paths then meadow? I.E.> Euro OCPD's would go firecrackers in American equipment? ~CS~
I would say when it comes to available short circuit currents as a whole Europe is about the same as the US. Where TN-C-S and TN-S exists with a supply transformer near by fault currents are about the same.

An interesting note is that because the voltage is higher secondary LV runs are longer so at the far end fault currents would be lower than the median average here.

In any case AIC for resi breaker are about the same. The big difference is disconnect times that the IEC wants.

These disconnect times have driven low magnetic trip breakers and earth fault loop impedance testing in addition to RCD requirements. The end result is 2 birds with one stone. Not only is grounding and bonding safety enhanced but so is fire prevention.

Had we gone with 30 or 50ma RCD on all our AFCI circuits fire protection would be met without nuisance tripping.
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Old 01-19-2015, 05:02 PM   #32
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Does the same hold true even with a carbonized arc path?








It can not, but a GFP can.
So it your opinion that we should have just required gfp everywhere instead of afci?
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Old 01-19-2015, 05:03 PM   #33
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So it your opinion that we should have just required gfp everywhere instead of afci?
Yes. And if hacks and poor electricians didn't exist we probably wouldn't even need GFPs.
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:14 PM   #34
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Does the same hold true even with a carbonized arc path? ...
It is my opinion that a carbonized path is a high resistance path and it not a series arc...and since it is not a series arc the AFCI cannot detect it,
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