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Old 10-07-2017, 09:03 AM   #1
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Default Any difference between these 2 breakers?

I was doing a residential service call and noticed two 40 amp 2-pole breakers in their panel, one for the range and other was for the a/c. I have personally never come across a 40 amp breaker for an a/c in a residential application but I am no a/c expert.
Upon further investigation I noticed that the breakers were different. The tie bar on the a/c breaker is a different color and the item code is also different.

The a/c breaker is feeding a #10 cable to the unit. Is this normal?
I have heard about type HACR breakers and am wondering if this is the case.

The a/c units name plate is too faded to determine the max breaker, fla, rla etc.

I have to get some other work inspected so I want to be sure this is the correct breaker for the a/c.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Edit: Sorry for the blurry pics, they are zoomed in. Name plate is the third pic and completely illegible. The a/c in not that large, last pic.
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Last edited by NDC; 10-07-2017 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:05 AM   #2
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It could be a different manufacturing plant.

As for the #10 and 40 amp breaker, it's perfectly fine as long as that's what the a/c unit calls for, at least under the NEC.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:05 AM   #3
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Is one an older version of the other.

40A for a residential AC seems high. You would have to check the nameplate for MCA and MOPD to see if it is correct.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:09 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by darren79 View Post
Is one an older version of the other.

40A for a residential AC seems high. You would have to check the nameplate for MCA and MOPD to see if it is correct.
Yea too bad the nameplate is completely faded. I updated the OP and included a pic.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDC View Post
I was doing a residential service call and noticed two 40 amp 2-pole breakers in their panel, one for the range and other was for the a/c. I have personally never come across a 40 amp breaker for an a/c in a residential application but I am no a/c expert.
Upon further investigation I noticed that the breakers were different. The tie bar on the a/c breaker is a different color and the item code is also different.

The a/c breaker is feeding a #10 cable to the unit. Is this normal?
I have heard about type HACR breakers and am wondering if this is the case.

The a/c units name plate is too faded to determine the max breaker, fla, rla etc.

I have to get some other work inspected so I want to be sure this is the correct breaker for the a/c.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Edit: Sorry for the blurry pics, they are zoomed in. Name plate is the third pic and completely illegible. The a/c in not that large, last pic.
Wow.
You guys have green grass and everything in Canada.
The way you guys talk sometimes, I get the impression that it snows 100% of the time and it's always like 40 below up there.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:18 AM   #6
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Wow.
You guys have green grass and everything in Canada.
The way you guys talk sometimes, I get the impression that it snows 100% of the time and it's always like 40 below up there.
It's very mild in southern Ontario right now. It's Thanks Giving weekend here and we hit 30 degrees C last week!
But I can remember many Thanks Givings where I was clearing the driveway of snow!
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:45 AM   #7
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I know there are different breakers for different applications (well I guess we all know that...).

For example the Seimens Q2100 (10, 000 AIC) and the EQ9675 (22, 000 AIC) look identical but one is a 100 amp stab and the other is a Service Entrance rated breaker.

I would not be able to tell them apart except for the sticker, if it was still there...

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Old 10-07-2017, 11:53 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
I know there are different breakers for different applications (well I guess we all know that...).

For example the Seimens Q2100 (10, 000 AIC) and the EQ9675 (22, 000 AIC) look identical but one is a 100 amp stab and the other is a Service Entrance rated breaker.

I would not be able to tell them apart except for the sticker, if it was still there...

Cheers
John
Type QP Siemens are apparently HACR rated whereas type Q are not. At least that's what I've gathered from doing a search.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:56 PM   #9
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You should post a photo. Yes, certain brands will color code the handles. BR by Eaton is a perfect example. Official Eaton breakers are all black, but say you get a Bryant type BR/CTL it will likely be blue for 15A, Red for 20A etc. Some aftermarket CH type manufactures do this too.

The 40 amp breaker on the ac is not unusual. Don't have the book on me to pull up the code section, but HVAC equipment has a nameplate with minimum wire size AND maximum breaker size. You are required to meet the nameplate requirements as a minimum. Often, they are number 10 wire on a 30A breaker, but I have also seen10 wire 40A breaker in residential work.

The units have overload protection, and the motor also has locked rotor current for a small time at startup. This is why the breaker is oversized for the ampacity of the wire.
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Old 10-08-2017, 04:35 AM   #10
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My own house has two 40A 240 breakers feeding two A/C systems -- via #10 Romex.

That's the usual drill in California.

Such loads are essentially pure motor loads, of course.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:47 PM   #11
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Type QP Siemens are apparently HACR rated whereas type Q are not. At least that's what I've gathered from doing a search.
Now they are all HACR and SWD rated whether you need it or not. They are all now "Type QP" but the part number on the breaker itself doesn't include the P, that way everything still matches the numbers on the labels of old panels. So a Q240 is a "Type QP 2 pole 40A" breaker.

There is no significant difference in the two breakers in the photos. Over the years they change suppliers of the components like the handle ties, sometimes they are plated, sometimes painted, sometimes bare.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:58 PM   #12
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Now they are all HACR and SWD rated whether you need it or not. They are all now "Type QP" but the part number on the breaker itself doesn't include the P, that way everything still matches the numbers on the labels of old panels. So a Q240 is a "Type QP 2 pole 40A" breaker.

There is no significant difference in the two breakers in the photos. Over the years they change suppliers of the components like the handle ties, sometimes they are plated, sometimes painted, sometimes bare.
Thanks this is really good info. Although on the Siemens site type Q is not rated HACR whereas type QP is.

I realized today that the a/c in question is identical to my own a/c. I looked at my a/c's spec plate and it too is completely faded. I was able to read the max breaker listing by shining a bright light on it though. I will do the same tomorrow when I go back to the clients home.
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