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Old 06-07-2016, 10:37 AM   #1
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Default Arc fault option

What are your guys thoughts on something like this for a residential application. I could see it saving some money on breakers. With the plug in arc faults it may not be worth it for panel neatness but would save on cost. I don't know of any code violations. Thoughts?
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:40 AM   #2
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My thoughts are to summarily execute every single person that allowed AFCI's to become a requirement. Every single one of those crooks.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:42 AM   #3
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My panels are so much nicer looking than that mess of
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Anathera View Post
What are your guys thoughts on something like this for a residential application. I could see it saving some money on breakers. With the plug in arc faults it may not be worth it for panel neatness but would save on cost. I don't know of any code violations. Thoughts?
If it's properly done and AHJ has no beef with it -- so be it.
I would give the customer the two quotes -- one for "real" AFCI's, and one for this solution, and let them decide, provided they understand what the receptacle option will look like.
Looks like you have plenty of room overhead, why not use it.
I can't imagine that an inspector will ding you for working space because of that.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:26 AM   #5
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I'd like to see the break down of cost both ways (with the extra labor included).
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:26 AM   #6
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When all is said and done with the additional labor, panel, and all what is the true cost savings over AFCI breakers ?
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:27 AM   #7
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Anybody who has figured out a way to screw the breakers guys out of money is okay with me. Don't use Cooper/Eaton devices, though. Go Leviton.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:35 AM   #8
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My thoughts are to summarily execute every single person that allowed AFCI's to become a requirement. Every single one of those crooks.
Id love a class action lawsuit where a judge forces them confess both to their own greed and stupidity.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:44 AM   #9
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Id love a class action lawsuit where a judge forces them confess both to their own greed and stupidity.
That would be meaningless.

All of those people stole money from citizens. The CMP took their payoffs and bribes from the manufacturers who then raped the consumers for millions.

An admission of guilt will not make those people whole.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:46 AM   #10
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That would be meaningless.

All of those people stole money from citizens. The CMP took their payoffs and bribes from the manufacturers who then raped the consumers for millions.

An admission of guilt will not make those people whole.

But a billion dollar settlement will work. Ok, not perfectly but they need to feel the burn.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:47 AM   #11
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But a billion dollar settlement will work. Ok, not perfectly but they need to feel the burn.
Corruption like this requires prison sentences.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:47 AM   #12
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That would be meaningless.

All of those people stole money from citizens. The CMP took their payoffs and bribes from the manufacturers who then raped the consumers for millions.

An admission of guilt will not make those people whole.
Most class action suits end with a monetary settlement.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:50 AM   #13
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Most class action suits end with a monetary settlement.
Most class actions law suits only benefit the lawyers.

I say we prepare the gallows. Who's in???
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:53 AM   #14
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That would be meaningless.

All of those people stole money from citizens. The CMP took their payoffs and bribes from the manufacturers who then raped the consumers for millions.

An admission of guilt will not make those people whole.
That is totally uncalled for. While I am not a fan of AFCIs, there is ZERO evidence of anything like that.

If you would go back and read the information that was presented when the AFCIs were first proposed, I expect most everyone would have voted in favor of them. The CMP has no independent investigation service that they can use...the rely on the information presented in the proposals and the test lab reports.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:55 AM   #15
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I have tried to use the AFCI receptacles in a couple remodel/additions where there was no (economical)way to get a CAFI breaker in. Both of them worked fine for about three months, then spent several hours trying to find out why they were tripping at random intervals. I found no faults, removed the devices and installed breakers. I wound up having to shuffle circuits around in the panel with a couple tandem breakers to get the space I needed for the CAFI breaker. Those (Leviton) devices failed me more than once.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:56 AM   #16
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That is totally uncalled for.
No, it's extremely called for. Without the envelops being passed under the table and the promise of lucrative jobs in the future, AFCI's would have never been put into code.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:56 AM   #17
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Most class actions law suits only benefit the lawyers.

I say we prepare the gallows. Who's in???

Gallows shmallows, I say cooking pots like in those old Tarzan movies.

Matter of fact, where was Tarzan when we needed him. He could have ended this epic AFCI scam by sneaking in at night and letting his knife do the job. And .... he could have beat batman's ass while he was at it. Stupid Tarzan for not showing up.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:02 PM   #18
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The CMP has no independent investigation service that they can use...the rely on the information presented in the proposals and the test lab reports.
That's just asking for trouble, and if it isn't rectified, I'm sure they'll be made fools of again - as it is, there have been no real consequences for anybody involved.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:04 PM   #19
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That's just asking for trouble, and if it isn't rectified, I'm sure they'll be made fools of again - as it is, there have been no real consequences for anybody involved.
The CMP is made up of a huge portion of manufacturers who sole purpose is not electrical safety, but to increase their profit.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:12 PM   #20
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What are your guys thoughts on something like this for a residential application. I could see it saving some money on breakers. With the plug in arc faults it may not be worth it for panel neatness but would save on cost. I don't know of any code violations. Thoughts?
I personally like it, except the positioning. Sometimes I think panel design is a little dated, or even kind of sucks. Cramming GFCI and AFCI into the breaker just seems unnecessarily cramped. Maybe space is at a premium on a submarine, not in your average basement or etc. Usually things that are more modular are easier to troubleshoot and cheaper to maintain - GFCI separate from AFCI separate from OCPD.

You can get DIN terminal block GFCI devices that are like deadfronts, maybe terminal block AFCI will come out? It would make a nice install.
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