Arc Faults and vs the Electrician - Page 3 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-28-2014, 11:57 PM   #41
corn-fused
 
papaotis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: on the river, near the corn
Posts: 4,769
Rewards Points: 620
Default

any company compensating you for time is indeed a rarity. i will consider that in possibly buying eaton products, which have just recently been available here.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
i like neat! just doesnt always happen
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
papaotis is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-30-2014, 02:35 AM   #42
Senior Member
 
Kunolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 178
Rewards Points: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19
There is no way to know if the AFCI would have tripped or if that would have ever caused a fire. If the nail is just touching one conductor neither would happen. Also the UL report titled "Influence of Damage and Degradation on Breakdown Voltage of NM Cables" shows that many common types of damage to NM cables do not produce an arc that can start a fire or even last long enough to trip the AFCI. (the report does not include nail damage as shown in the picture in this thread)
Although it looks like you did some research on this, you don't know how an AFCI works if your stating "neither would happen if the nail was only touching one conductor". A series fault is exactly what a AFCI is looking for, a regular breaker can respond to L-L, L-N, or L-G faults provided they last long enough AFCI will pick up the short faults but Most times this is not what causes fires, it's the low power faults caused buy nails, staples, or pinching of the cables that cause the fire some time down the road.
Kunolop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2014, 02:42 AM   #43
Senior Member
 
Kunolop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 178
Rewards Points: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by papaotis
any company compensating you for time is indeed a rarity. i will consider that in possibly buying eaton products, which have just recently been available here.
Every company will compensate you, provided you purchase the items from a wholesale and are fairly loyal to buying their products. If you buy one panel here and there from different suppliers or manufacturers I would not waste my time trying to get paid for that service. We found being loyal to one manufacturer and one supplier for this type of equipment has helped us in these situations. We do the same for our residential devices and smoke/CO devices as I find we have more problems with defective GFCI receptacles and smoke detectors than AFCi's.
Kunolop is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-30-2014, 07:27 AM   #44
felonious smile.
 
Shockdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Long Island,NY & Poconos
Posts: 15,934
Rewards Points: 572
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunolop View Post
Although it looks like you did some research on this, you don't know how an AFCI works if your stating "neither would happen if the nail was only touching one conductor". A series fault is exactly what a AFCI is looking for, a regular breaker can respond to L-L, L-N, or L-G faults provided they last long enough AFCI will pick up the short faults but Most times this is not what causes fires, it's the low power faults caused buy nails, staples, or pinching of the cables that cause the fire some time down the road.
the last time I heard that in so many words it was an afci promotional. Are you sure with such a low post count you are not a afci paid endorser.




Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app
__________________
Clean this mess up before we all end up in jail, the test tubes and the scale. Just get it all out of here. Is there gas in the car?
Shockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2014, 07:32 AM   #45
Senior Member
 
backstay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: mn
Posts: 12,376
Rewards Points: 296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockdoc
the last time I heard that in so many words it was an afci promotional. Are you sure with such a low post count you are not a afci paid endorser. Sent from my C5215 using electriciantalk.com mobile app
A plant for sure.
backstay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2014, 07:37 AM   #46
Retired Account
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: the Green Mountain state
Posts: 39,722
Rewards Points: 14,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunolop View Post
Although it looks like you did some research on this, you don't know how an AFCI works if your stating "neither would happen if the nail was only touching one conductor". A series fault is exactly what a AFCI is looking for, a regular breaker can respond to L-L, L-N, or L-G faults provided they last long enough AFCI will pick up the short faults but Most times this is not what causes fires, it's the low power faults caused buy nails, staples, or pinching of the cables that cause the fire some time down the road.
this is what afci's do & do not do

further, electrical fires are started by gloing connections , which are usually incendiary long before they decay into an arc

~CS~
chicken steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2014, 11:28 AM   #47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: IL
Posts: 3,838
Rewards Points: 1,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunolop View Post
Although it looks like you did some research on this, you don't know how an AFCI works if your stating "neither would happen if the nail was only touching one conductor". A series fault is exactly what a AFCI is looking for, a regular breaker can respond to L-L, L-N, or L-G faults provided they last long enough AFCI will pick up the short faults but Most times this is not what causes fires, it's the low power faults caused buy nails, staples, or pinching of the cables that cause the fire some time down the road.
I fully understand how the AFCI works or actually doesn't work.

First there is no evidence that the picture shows what could be a "series arcing fault".
Of course you are correct that the nail could create a series fault, but unless it cuts all of the strands of the conductor that it has penetrated, it would not create a "series arcing fault". In addition there is no evidence that a self sustaining "series arcing fault" can even exist at dwelling unit voltages.

The faults caused by overdriven staples and hammer blows are the exact types of faults that are in the UL report. These faults self extinguished at the half cycle zero crossing and the AFCI does not do anything unless the fault continues for at least 8 half cycles. In addition the AFCI does not even look for an arcing fault unless the circuit current exceeds 5 amps.

You talked about low power faults, but like I said the device does not even look for faults if the current is less than 5 amps. Currents lower than 5 amps can easily produce enough heat to start fires. Experiments with "glowing" (high resistance) connections show that they can be created with less than one amp of current flow and that even at this low current there is enough heat energy to start a fire. An AFCI cannot even directly detect a glowing connection.
don_resqcapt19 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to don_resqcapt19 For This Useful Post:
chicken steve (06-30-2014), Shockdoc (07-02-2014)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What I think of QO Arc-Faults Going_Commando Residential Electrical Forum 29 04-23-2012 05:53 PM
Bx and arc faults Clarky Residential Electrical Forum 44 03-15-2012 09:01 PM
NC may do away with Arc Faults Dennis Alwon Residential Electrical Forum 50 07-16-2009 11:56 AM
Arc Faults electrich Site Help and Suggestions 8 01-28-2009 09:49 PM
Arc faults everywhere !!! MDShunk NEC Code Forum 9 04-08-2007 08:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com