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Old 03-16-2019, 09:15 AM   #41
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They can save a lot of time for attic work. I mount all the drivers by the hatch and then run the extensions to my holes. I poke holes through the loose fill from below with pieces of single conductor, tape the extenders to them from above and pull them down. Then I can do all my connections off a ladder at the hatch.
I like Splatz's fantasy item, a single driver with multiple outputs. Perfect for that situation. It can have little terminals like the speaker wire terminals on A/V receivers. Bring one 120V switch leg into it and done.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:27 AM   #42
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Even one output with enough output for say 10 of these capable of line voltage dimming, not 0-10v. Daisy chain the way we’ve been discussing with tstat cable.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:33 AM   #43
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Even one output with enough output for say 10 of these capable of line voltage dimming, not 0-10v. Daisy chain the way we’ve been discussing with tstat cable.
Even better!
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:50 AM   #44
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I mainly use Lithonias but will use Lotus if I need a gimbal style. The 1 resi remodel company we work with now sells all their customers on wafer lights, regardless of whether its open ceiling or not. I started buying the lithonia rough in pans and the sheetrockers have been good about cutting them in so far. Makes it super easy. I'd still rather install new work cans when ceilings are open, since it doesn't make any mess on finish. I haven't used the rough in plates with blown in insulation yet, so I guess I'll have to figure that out when I get there.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:23 AM   #45
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Using a piece of bell wire and 4 levernuts is a lot easier.
That would presume there was another hole elsewhere to send the bell wire to.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:25 AM   #46
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If it was an engineered joist, he’s probably in jail right now.
Hmmmm.... Why would he be in jail? I haven't seen him in a while, so he might be, but I doubt it's due to engineered joist crime.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:28 AM   #47
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I still use traditional recessed lights when the ceiling is open. Cheap and adaptable. The drywaller does all the work of cutting them out. Then I just throw an LED trim into it.
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I know a guy who hit dead-center of a joist and couldn't fit the driver in the hole. He took a big beater screwdriver and knocked about 3/4" off one side of the joist.
If it was an engineered joist, he’s probably in jail right now.
If I had a nickel for every cut/notched/improperly drilled/web cut out engineered joist I've seen, I'd have a crap ton of nickels.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:37 AM   #48
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I like Splatz's fantasy item, a single driver with multiple outputs. Perfect for that situation. It can have little terminals like the speaker wire terminals on A/V receivers. Bring one 120V switch leg into it and done.
@splatz fantasy item



@HackWork fantasy item
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:45 AM   #49
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I like Splatz's fantasy item, a single driver with multiple outputs. Perfect for that situation. It can have little terminals like the speaker wire terminals on A/V receivers. Bring one 120V switch leg into it and done.
Those drivers exist already, just used for other applications. These “wafer” light manufacturers need to wake up.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:46 AM   #50
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Those drivers exist already, just used for other applications. These “wafer” light manufacturers need to wake up.
Yes, I didn’t mean fantasy as in it didn’t exist at all. I meant something that he’s been wanting for this application.

I said it as a nod to a good idea.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:50 AM   #51
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@splatz fantasy item



@HackWork fantasy item
Pffffttt, as if. Hax gets down more like this:
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:58 AM   #52
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Yes, I didn’t mean fantasy as in it didn’t exist at all. I meant something that he’s been wanting for this application.

I said it as a nod to a good idea.
If they just put touch safe terminals on the lights, and spec'd the power supply requirements, I'd be set.

The really cool setup would be a device that installed in a wiring closet that was network accessible and inputs for standard 0-10V dimmers.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:27 PM   #53
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I love the slim recessed lights from an installation standpoint. But one major thing I don't like about them is glare. They have far more glare than traditional baffle trim recessed lights. There's really no solution either since this is an inherent issue with them since there is no light control to them other than the plastic lens. It seems dimming is the only solution to the glare.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:55 PM   #54
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Still a lot of products out there that leave you scratching your head asking what were they thinking when they made this?
I always say that people who design electrical equipment should be forced to install it few times to see if there design is practical.
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:49 AM   #55
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I love the slim recessed lights from an installation standpoint. But one major thing I don't like about them is glare. They have far more glare than traditional baffle trim recessed lights. There's really no solution either since this is an inherent issue with them since there is no light control to them other than the plastic lens. It seems dimming is the only solution to the glare.
This is a personal opinion, though. When I first started installing Lotus Lights, you guys thought I was on crack. That has been a few years now and I have had zero customer complaints.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:25 AM   #56
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A remote mounted driver for multiple lights would need to be smart enough to adjust the output voltage to maintain a constant current to each LED. That's why they have drivers and not simple voltage source power supplies. It would somehow need to know how many lights are connected and the draw from each one. Do these exist?
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:41 AM   #57
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A remote mounted driver for multiple lights would need to be smart enough to adjust the output voltage to maintain a constant current to each LED. That's why they have drivers and not simple voltage source power supplies. It would somehow need to know how many lights are connected and the draw from each one. Do these exist?
I did not know this. The driver maintains constant current? Is that just to compensate for voltage drop?

The closest thing I have seen to a multi-light remote driver is PoE lighting. I think PoE makes no sense for lighting but it sounds high tech / IT / IoT without really making sense.

My point would be to make one smart device and a lot of dumb cheap lights that last forever, rather than a million smart (expensive) devices. If you think about it this makes sense for the consumer, but no lighting manufacturer is going to be real anxious to jump on board, for the same reason.

I also think when you pencil this out you really don't want to have to have one port on the remote device per light, which means one home run per light. I think you'd want to have a group of lights clustered in one area on a home run. This way you can beef up the home run to a junction box to reduce voltage drop and increase the maximum distance. Say a 12AWG home run to a junction box 200' away, then a loop of 18-2 to the lights. That cluster is dimmed together / programmed together.

I don't think the dream device is not that far from a 70V commercial audio amplifier. Substitute dimming for volume control and LED fixtures for speakers.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:56 AM   #58
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A remote mounted driver for multiple lights would need to be smart enough to adjust the output voltage to maintain a constant current to each LED. That's why they have drivers and not simple voltage source power supplies. It would somehow need to know how many lights are connected and the draw from each one. Do these exist?
Why can I connect multiple sticks of undercabinet lights to a single driver and they all work as long as I’m within the Watts rating of the driver?
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:57 AM   #59
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Good point.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:01 AM   #60
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I did not know this. The driver maintains constant current? Is that just to compensate for voltage drop?
LEDs won't self-limit their current like a filament will. Once they reach turn on voltage, they will pull as much current as you can feed them until they self destruct. A simple but wasteful method is to use a current limiting resistor at a constant voltage. But that is only practical with one low power LED.

When you have strings of LEDs in series, as you do internally with these recessed lights, the solution is to have a driver circuit that actively limits the current. I guess each light could have current limiting built in and you just need a power supply.

Quote:
The closest thing I have seen to a multi-light remote driver is PoE lighting. I think PoE makes no sense for lighting but it sounds high tech / IT / IoT without really making sense.

My point would be to make one smart device and a lot of dumb cheap lights that last forever, rather than a million smart (expensive) devices. If you think about it this makes sense for the consumer, but no lighting manufacturer is going to be real anxious to jump on board, for the same reason.

I also think when you pencil this out you really don't want to have to have one port on the remote device per light, which means one home run per light. I think you'd want to have a group of lights clustered in one area on a home run. This way you can beef up the home run to a junction box to reduce voltage drop and increase the maximum distance. Say a 12AWG home run to a junction box 200' away, then a loop of 18-2 to the lights. That cluster is dimmed together / programmed together.

I don't think the dream device is not that far from a 70V commercial audio amplifier. Substitute dimming for volume control and LED fixtures for speakers.

We should have a 14 AWG non-metallic Reloc system where we can just send 120 V to the lights and plug them in above the sheetrock. Put a couple of 0-10 wires in with it.
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