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Old 04-23-2017, 08:22 AM   #21
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They were on the market for about 75 years at that time! Were they thought bad because

they could slip off something and damage wire
they reduce human labor, bad for jobs
they could poke you in the eye, safety issue
they just didn't like them

I always liked Yankee drivers and until the last few years used them quite a bit, still use them a little.
I used one up until Bosch came out with the 10v driver drill.

Can't say I have used one since then.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:40 AM   #22
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I used one up until Bosch came out with the 10v driver drill.

Can't say I have used one since then.
I still like using one with plastic anchors. Let's say you're running pipe or strapping a cable with plastic anchors in block, very common thing for me. I use a carpenter type tool bag for this. I'll fill the small pouch with anchors and screws, the big bag full of clips, the yankee driver in one of the loops, small hammer in the hammer loop, and the hammer drill on a hook on the belt. Drill, anchor, hammer, screw, Yankee, repeat, move the ladder, repeat. Very fast.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:02 AM   #23
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I still like using one with plastic anchors. Let's say you're running pipe or strapping a cable with plastic anchors in block, very common thing for me. I use a carpenter type tool bag for this. I'll fill the small pouch with anchors and screws, the big bag full of clips, the yankee driver in one of the loops, small hammer in the hammer loop, and the hammer drill on a hook on the belt. Drill, anchor, hammer, screw, Yankee, repeat, move the ladder, repeat. Very fast.
I'd typically add a bolt bag for the anchors / screws and a hammer loop to my typical Carhartt apron set up for that, the hammer loop for the 7.2v DeWalt screwdriver.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:55 AM   #24
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I'd typically add a bolt bag for the anchors / screws and a hammer loop to my typical Carhartt apron set up for that, the hammer loop for the 7.2v DeWalt screwdriver.
An apron is nice for a lot of things but it's not enough to hold up the hammer drill. If I am going to hang power tools off anything I have to have a full size tool belt and suspenders.

With the hammer drill and a cordless screwdriver, even with the little M12 gear, for me two power tools is cumbersome if I can possibly avoid it I will.

With the condrive type tool I can almost match the speed with the hammer drill only but you still have to fiddle switching it from hammer to screwdriver.

So the yankee driver is still the fastest / lightest for me!
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:50 AM   #25
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Just gave away my Yankee screwdriver to a woodworker: Hopefully he gets more use out of It than me.

As far as the OPs question, I get irritated when I see apprenticeship classes wade into this kinda detail: We graduate guys who don't know theory to understand voltage drop, overcurrent protection, or proper bonding.

Wasting time on discussing electron flow should be way down on the list, only after guys have mastered the theory they actually need to know in order to do their job right.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #26
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Just gave away my Yankee screwdriver to a woodworker: Hopefully he gets more use out of It than me.

As far as the OPs question, I get irritated when I see apprenticeship classes wade into this kinda detail: We graduate guys who don't know theory to understand voltage drop, overcurrent protection, or proper bonding.

Wasting time on discussing electron flow should be way down on the list, only after guys have mastered the theory they actually need to know in order to do their job right.
I completely agree. This is really esoteric. A better question would be what subjects should be covered from a field standpoint?.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:38 AM   #27
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The atomic origin of electricity isn't necessary for electricians. In other words, they don't need to know what electricity is, they just need to know how it behaves. The rules it follows.

Theory electricians should understand:

Current flows from high potential to low potential.
Current only flows in complete circuits.
Current will take all paths available to it.
All electric currents have an associated magnetic field.
A changing magnetic field can induce a voltage in a nearby conductor (aka magic).
The intensity of the magnetic field is proportional to the current.
All materials are conductors.
Some materials are better conductors than others.
Current is proportional to voltage and inversely proportional to resistance (aka Ohm's Law).
The current flowing in a series circuit is the same at all points in that circuit.
The currents flowing in a parallel circuit will all add up to the current flowing from the source.
The earth has nothing to do with circuit operation.

And probably more. But that's a start.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:13 PM   #28
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As far as the OPs question, I get irritated when I see apprenticeship classes wade into this kinda detail: We graduate guys who don't know theory to understand voltage drop, overcurrent protection, or proper bonding.

Wasting time on discussing electron flow should be way down on the list, only after guys have mastered the theory they actually need to know in order to do their job right.
Thanks, couldn't agree more!
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:17 PM   #29
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Theory of lightning striking up, and down has brought up interest in theory just like this. I think electrons can flow either way. Just looking for different potential. The stronger side wins. That's why it's theory. If anyone really knew, half of a school year would have been a waste of time. I wouldn't dwell too long on this part of class to be an electrician. It is very helpful when trying to understand, and if you do figure it out you will be a very wealthy man. Good argument for the most part.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:34 PM   #30
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I think the difference truly applies to A.C. or D.C. Circuits as D.C. Flows from neg to pos and AC - well um, alternates.
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:10 AM   #31
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I think the difference truly applies to A.C. or D.C. Circuits as D.C. Flows from neg to pos and AC - well um, alternates.
Neither of which have an affect on the actual wiring of the circuitry we all deal with ad nauseam on a daily basis.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:58 PM   #32
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The atomic origin of electricity isn't necessary for electricians. In other words, they don't need to know what electricity is, they just need to know how it behaves. The rules it follows.
No, electricians don't need to be rocket scientists, but I do think a rudimentary concept of the fundamental nature of electricity should be part of an electrician's basic education, don't you? If someone asks an electrician how electricity works and the answer is "no frickin' clue" that's a bit lame IMHO.

In any case, I don't set the curriculum, that's the apprenticeship board's job. I have to cover the subjects required by the board or put our accreditation at risk.

It would just be nice if the high school and trade curricula adopted the same default convention so we can get through the basics without an unnecessary source of confusion. I personally blame the electron flow preference on one Stephen L. Herman, author of Delmar's Standard Textbook of Electricity. Not his worst crime... but that's another conversation.

To address another poster's comments/concerns, it's not as though we spend weeks pondering quantum theory at the expense of subjects like voltage drop. My students are at square one here. They just found out today what an electron is. And now I'm going to tell them which way it goes.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:37 AM   #33
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Agreed, there has to be a set standard for testing. However, there are some things you can teach for the students to pass the test and have an introduction to. Then there are others you delve into, so, that have a working understanding of the subject. Let commonsense be your guide. Not everything is black and white.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:30 AM   #34
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No, electricians don't need to be rocket scientists, but I do think a rudimentary concept of the fundamental nature of electricity should be part of an electrician's basic education, don't you? If someone asks an electrician how electricity works and the answer is "no frickin' clue" that's a bit lame IMHO.
Everything in my post can tell a customer how electricity works, it just doesn't answer what electricity is. I'm not suggesting that electricians shouldn't know about the atomic theory, but it is not necessary for their job. Apprentices should learn the how and the method. If they want to know the why, they can dig deeper.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:39 AM   #35
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No, electricians don't need to be rocket scientists, but I do think a rudimentary concept of the fundamental nature of electricity should be part of an electrician's basic education, don't you? If someone asks an electrician how electricity works and the answer is "no frickin' clue" that's a bit lame IMHO.

In any case, I don't set the curriculum, that's the apprenticeship board's job. I have to cover the subjects required by the board or put our accreditation at risk.
If you can get them all to stop saying current goes to ground, that would be better IMO

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In any case, I don't set the curriculum, that's the apprenticeship board's job. I have to cover the subjects required by the board or put our accreditation at risk.
I wouldn't spend more than 2 minutes on it.
Tell them what 'conventional' current flow is, then tell them the electrons actually go the other way. Let them know that if they analyse a PNP circuit, it's easier to use electron flow to understand it (at least, It made more sense to me that way ...)
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #36
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If you can get them all to stop saying current goes to ground, that would be better IMO
Touche'... Current returns to its source. Draw out the whole circuit including the utility xfmr.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:46 AM   #37
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In my electrical, electronic, and engineering studies I have found that when people use one method or one statement to describe something that there will always be detractors...unless the guy saying it is Kirchoff, Ohm, Einstein, etc.

The Hawkins guide No. 1 from 1914 (the oldest reference on my shelf) states that "...the current will always flow along the path of least resistance..." which is a true statement by itself. Saying further that it will also take all paths is of course more accurate.

Hole flow (conventional?) and electron flow are interesting in that it is neither which actually produces the difference of potential in and of itself. It is the excitation of the material by applying a force which raises the electrons to higher levels, ultimately creating a difference of potential in the material. The charged state when meeting a material with a state of lower charge (potential) desires to return to equilibrium (whatever that may be at that point in time). So now electricity "flows".

Thinking of electricity like water is convenient, to a point. But when the terminology is used for so long the ideas like current must "flow" and things must be moving to create or exchange energy is not accurate in the case of electricity or else induction wouldn't work (and it does). Induction is a good example where we know that electrons are not flowing between windings, yet EMF transfers the energy and electricity "flows".

Unfortunately, many people over the years equated electron "flow" (movement) with the "flow" of electricity.

In any case, electrons drift from atom to atom. Atoms also move. Whether or not there is a difference of potential (producing usable electricity) this is constantly happening (thermal vibration).

There is way too much ground to cover on this topic in a forum. We aren't going to get a bachelor's degree from it.

None of this matters to an electrician (unless he has tattoos).

I recommend Conference Room 4 to the OP if he wants to get into an in-depth discussion on the topic. They like dead horses over there.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:34 AM   #38
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Cuba Pete made a great point. Every explanation breaks down at some point.
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