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Old 08-18-2017, 10:17 PM   #41
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Let's not go down that road with undercabinet lighting or we'll have somebody looking for that too. They get into a big fuss over multiple relays in an enclosure needing a listing for the whole assembly too.
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:57 AM   #42
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Here are the instructions I came up with.

In both cases, I think Art. 411 applies, not 410. Note the use of the word 'identified'. This allows more leeway in regards to the use of these lights.

I also think you need to get used to using the term 'lighting system' instead of 'fixture'. It may get you around any listing requirements.

Quote:
411.3 Low-Voltage Lighting Systems.
(A) General.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less
shall consist of an isolating power supply, low-voltage luminaires,
and associated equipment that are all identified
for the use. The output circuits of the power supply shall be
rated for 25 amperes and 30 volts (42.4 volts peak)maximum
under all load conditions.
(B) Class 2. Listed Class 2 lighting equipment shall be
rated in conformance with Chapler 9, Table 11 (A) or Table
11(B).
411.4 Listing Required. Lighting systems operating at
30 volts or less shall comply with 411.4(A) or 411.4(B).
Class 2 power sources and lighting equipment connected to
Class 2 power sources shall be listed.
(A) Listed System. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts
or less shall be listed as a complete system. The luminaires,
power supply, and luminaire fittings (including the exposed
bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system
shall be listed for the use as part of the same identified
lighting system.
(B) Assembly of Listed Parts. A lighting system assembled
from the following listed parts shall be permitted:
(1) Low-voltage luminaires
(2) Low-voltage luminaire power supply
(3) Low-voltage luminaire fittings
(4) Cord (secondary circuit) for which the luminaires and
power supply are listed for use
(5) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring
method for the secondary circuit
The luminaires, power supply, and luminaire fittings
(including the exposed bare conductors) of an exposed bare
conductor lighting system shall be listed for use as part of
the same identified lighting system.
To the OP: The company I work for is licensed to do electrical work in my state. It legally allows me to assemble and install a system like you have described. You may have to play by a different set of rules, and I would definitely check with your building department for guidance.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:04 AM   #43
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Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on getting lighting fixtures listed. This was done by big companies with lots of lawyers. You get my drift...

Remember, it's all up to the AHJ.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:26 AM   #44
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So maybe the OP needs to hire a local EC to 'install' each 'system'.

Know thy loopholes.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:49 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barjack View Post
So maybe the OP needs to hire a local EC to 'install' each 'system'.

Know thy loopholes.
I think you are just giving the OP false hope.

Loopholes? "Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on getting lighting fixtures listed. This was done by big companies with lots of lawyers. You get my drift..."
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:51 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
I think you are just giving the OP false hope.
I'm trying to drum up business....
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:51 AM   #47
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I don't like loopholes. Shady people use them mostly. Also most loopholes close eventually.

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Old 08-20-2017, 10:06 AM   #48
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But seriously, if the OP finds an EC who will assume the responsibility of installing a listed Class 2 lighting system in a custom glass sculpture, what's the problem?
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:11 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barjack View Post
But seriously, if the OP finds an EC who will assume the responsibility of installing a listed Class 2 lighting system in a custom glass sculpture, what's the problem?
The problem is that he is now screwing the EC over. Or the homeowner. Not something a good lighting company should be doing.

I still fail to see how a company that has been making light fixtures since 1988 and having them installed at all those prestigious locations doesn't know that light fixtures need to be listed.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:33 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
The problem is that he is now screwing the EC over.
If I was ever approached to do something like this, I would make sure it was worth my while.

Quote:
I still fail to see how a company that has been making light fixtures since 1988 and having them installed at all those prestigious locations doesn't know that light fixtures need to be listed.
No argument here.

A lot of the examples in the OP's gallery I would consider light fixtures requiring listing to meet electrical as well as mechanical standards.

But not all of them.

I feel like there is a gray area here. Where is the line drawn between a luminaire and a lighting system?
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:34 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
The problem is that he is now screwing the EC over. Or the homeowner. Not something a good lighting company should be doing.

I still fail to see how a company that has been making light fixtures since 1988 and having them installed at all those prestigious locations doesn't know that light fixtures need to be listed.
Because we're a glass studio first and foremost and not "a lighting company." 90% of what we do is tabletop glass. For the first 20 years, like most glass blowers, it was just the occasional custom blown glass pendant light shades on standard sockets from a local lamp parts supplier, and it honestly never came up. Once we started making large scale glass chandelier installations maybe 10 years ago they were all lit externally (recessed or track) and I didn't need to be involved in the physical lighting install. So it never came up as an issue.

It's only the last few years that we started using the 5v LED strips inside our glass enclosures, and this is honestly the first time it's come up. That's why I'm here now.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:02 PM   #52
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At 5 volts I would even give it a second thought.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrn33 View Post
At 5 volts I would even give it a second thought.
The fixture is powered by 120V.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
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The fixture is powered by 120V.
Unlpug it.
No but in this case all that should need to be listed it the transformer.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrn33 View Post
Unlpug it.
No but in this case all that should need to be listed it the transformer.
Our opinions don't matter, all you are doing is giving this guy false hope.

By now, he should have contacted the AHJ and multiple listing agencies to find out what he actually needs to do.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:05 PM   #56
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A conclusion was reached!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barjack View Post
I'm very curious as to how similar or different you all think the OP's fixtures are to the cabinet lighting installations we do in our kitchen remodels.

We use listed parts as well, and I've never had any trouble passing an inspection or anyone saying anything about the installation as a whole needing to be listed.

[...]

Using the reasoning in this thread, it would seem my installation creates a custom luminaire out of each set of cabinets, and would require its own listing.

Or,

The light producing parts by themselves are considered the luminaires, and are listed, and that is acceptable.
Barjack got this one right. Just now got the determination from the State Electrical Inspector:

"Light fixture is in compliance with NEC 410.6 with all components having a UL listing."

Whew!

I want to give a sincere thank you to everyone for giving me a lot to think about going forward. I still plan to look into UL Listing the one fixture so I can list it online and sell tons of them to commercial projects and not have to worry.

But for now...

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Old 08-25-2017, 08:07 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FThumb View Post
A conclusion was reached!



Barjack got this one right. Just now got the determination from the State Electrical Inspector:

"Light fixture is in compliance with NEC 410.6 with all components having a UL listing."

Whew!

I want to give a sincere thank you to everyone for giving me a lot to think about going forward. I still plan to look into UL Listing the one fixture so I can list it online and sell tons of them to commercial projects and not have to worry.

But for now...



I'm glad it all worked out!


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Old 08-25-2017, 10:32 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FThumb View Post
A conclusion was reached!



Barjack got this one right. Just now got the determination from the State Electrical Inspector:

"Light fixture is in compliance with NEC 410.6 with all components having a UL listing."

Whew!

I want to give a sincere thank you to everyone for giving me a lot to think about going forward. I still plan to look into UL Listing the one fixture so I can list it online and sell tons of them to commercial projects and not have to worry.

But for now...


Glad you lucked out, I bet you didn't call first thing on a Monday morning.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:40 PM   #59
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Glad you lucked out, I bet you didn't call first thing on a Monday morning.
It was a series of emails over the last few weeks. I thought they were with the client's electricians, didn't catch that he was the HJA (did I get that right?) until the approval came down. I read 410.6 after he sent the approval, and... that coin could have easily come up tails. Lucked out indeed.

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Old 08-26-2017, 01:37 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FThumb View Post
It was a series of emails over the last few weeks. I thought they were with the client's electricians, didn't catch that he was the HJA (did I get that right?) until the approval came down. I read 410.6 after he sent the approval, and... that coin could have easily come up tails. Lucked out indeed.

"There's no educational value in the second kick from a mule."
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AHJ - authority having jurisdiction
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