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Old 05-30-2018, 12:17 PM   #1
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Default Delta motors, wye generator

I have a stupid question(s): I have a japanese built machine that has 2 fairly large 3 phase motors. here is the info from the motor plates:


motor 1

voltage: 200/200/220
freq: 50/50/60
amp: 119/113/105


Motor 2
voltage 200/200/220
freq 50/50/60
amp: 208/198/182


There is no neutral on the incoming panel.


I am have 480 volt 3 phase service installed at my facility. What transformer should I be using? Can i run the machine with a generator that produces 3 phase voltage (208, 220, 240)...i was told (by my electrician) i could NOT because the generator produces wye and i need delta...i thought i could just omit the neutral on the generator and be fine. If i can run with the generator, what voltage should i be outputting/pushing to the machine?



Your help is greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:23 PM   #2
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Please fill out your about me section so we can give a answer at your level of understanding.


Short answer
1. get an electrician to size and install proper transformer, it is not an over the net sizing option.


2. Your generator must be HUGE to start them motors
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanko View Post
I have a stupid question(s): I have a japanese built machine that has 2 fairly large 3 phase motors. here is the info from the motor plates:


motor 1

voltage: 200/200/220
freq: 50/50/60
amp: 119/113/105


Motor 2
voltage 200/200/220
freq 50/50/60
amp: 208/198/182


There is no neutral on the incoming panel.


I am have 480 volt 3 phase service installed at my facility. What transformer should I be using? Can i run the machine with a generator that produces 3 phase voltage (208, 220, 240)...i was told (by my electrician) i could NOT because the generator produces wye and i need delta...i thought i could just omit the neutral on the generator and be fine. If i can run with the generator, what voltage should i be outputting/pushing to the machine?



Your help is greatly appreciated.
1. you have 480V 3 ph already? Do you have enough of that available to run the machine?
2. What's with a generator? Are you confusing generator and transformer?
3. If you have the 480V available, why not use a transformer down to 230V?
4. What's the nameplate of the machine say you need as a circuit for it??
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Last edited by Helmut; 05-30-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:39 PM   #4
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You list the voltage as 200 200 220, do you mean 200 208 220?
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:21 PM   #5
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I don't have the 480 v 3 phase installed yet. I have a huge generator. The 200/200/220 is correct.



Can anyone actually answer my original questions?
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanko View Post


I am have 480 volt 3 phase service installed at my facility. What transformer should I be using?
For what, just this machine or for other loads as well.

A 225KVA 480x208 will give you a little over 600A at 208V. Beats me if that's enough for what you plan on doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanko View Post
Can i run the machine with a generator that produces 3 phase voltage (208, 220, 240)...i was told (by my electrician) i could NOT because the generator produces wye and i need delta...i thought i could just omit the neutral on the generator and be fine.
He's wrong. You gave no info on size of generator, or anything about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanko View Post
If i can run with the generator, what voltage should i be outputting/pushing to the machine?
The higher the voltage, the less current. Go high.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:28 PM   #7
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Your generator has to be at least 400Kw @220v. to start those motors. (at the same time)

You need load calcs. before the transformer can be sized properly.
You CAN run delta equipment off a wye source. Fire your electrician.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:45 PM   #8
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Also fire whoever keeps insisting they are getting "great deals" on foreign motors, lathes, etc only to realize how expensive / how non-code conforming it is to get them working state side
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:54 PM   #9
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A motor does not care if the source is ∆ or Y. All it cares about is reasonably balanced phase to phase voltage. It doesn't even care if the source is grounded or not.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Also fire whoever keeps insisting they are getting "great deals" on foreign motors, lathes, etc only to realize how expensive / how non-code conforming it is to get them working state side
In certain industries the only available or decent equipment comes from foreign voltage standards and conversion is usually painful. It's not a matter of being cheap. For instance the largest dimensional lumber plant in North America was disassembled and moved from a Scandanavian country and reassembled here in North Carolina. None of our plants even come close. It is all 440/50 Hz. Fortunately the drives don't care and only a few motors had to be converted.

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Old 05-30-2018, 09:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by paulengr View Post
In certain industries the only available or decent equipment comes from foreign voltage standards and conversion is usually painful. It's not a matter of being cheap. For instance the largest dimensional lumber plant in North America was disassembled and moved from a Scandanavian country and reassembled here in North Carolina. None of our plants even come close. It is all 440/50 Hz. Fortunately the drives don't care and only a few motors had to be converted.

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I agree, but also, we see this happening a lot more now because of Fleabay and the like, making seemingly inexpensive used equipment available to anyone anywhere in the world, so long as the freight is cheap enough, which leads the the problems samgregger alluded to. Buyers find these "deals" and have them shipped in without asking anyone in advance how it can be hooked up, then expecting the poor electrician to perform some sort of magic with no budget.



I was just called out to one like that last week, 380V 50Hz tablet sorting machine bought dirt cheap on FleaBay and shipped in for less than half the cost of a locally sourced version. The electrician was told he could connect the 380/50 motors to 480/60, and that was essentially correct, but the machine has to run synchronized with the feeder and load-out conveyors, so when it ran 20% faster, it screwed everything up. We added VFDs to the motors, now the total cost, including the damaged product and down time, has cost them about 50% MORE than had they bought the US machine.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:46 PM   #12
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Ever seen Process Equipment magazine? Or gone to one of those auctions? EBay just makes it more convenient but this kind of thing has existed for years. We make good money either repairing or sourcing screwy motors, or replacing controls, drives, and so on. I can almost read Chinglish and Japish. It's all good for business. One of my customers has built almost an entire machine shop out of WWII vintage machinery where we swap out all the controls.

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Old 05-30-2018, 11:30 PM   #13
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Thank you so much for the help with the delta and Y question...that was my primary concern. And i didn't have a choice on the motors or the machine...there are only 9 of these machines in the world (I own 4 of them) and you take them as they are...jap motors and all.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:36 AM   #14
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We had a project where the designer brought in a generator operated by a 480volt motor,
They setup a panel with the voltage and frequency output for the machines.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Thank you so much for the help with the delta and Y question...that was my primary concern. And i didn't have a choice on the motors or the machine...there are only 9 of these machines in the world (I own 4 of them) and you take them as they are...jap motors and all.
At the size you're at phase converters are out. 20% speed change isn't doable by varying poles. So you have two choices. You can mechanically gear down in a gear box, varying the sheaves in belts, etc., or go VFD. With the VFD if you buy a big one (not necessarily a good economic choice) you can also change the voltage "for free" and/or soft start to increase motor life and replace the starters while you are at it, giving you a smaller incoming supply wiring and transformer, and smaller utility "demand" charges.

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Old 05-31-2018, 01:34 PM   #16
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Is the speed difference going to be a problem though? Those motors are "tripple rated" meaning they are designed for use on 200V 50Hz, 200V 60Hz, or 220V 60Hz. That's not uncommon fro Japanese machinery because if you think the available voltages in the US are confusing, in Japan, roughly half of the country is 200V 50Hz, the other half is 200V 60Hz! So they HAVE TO make their motors capable of operating in wider acceptable V/Hz ratios.

So for you, that just means you can get a standard off-the-shelf 480a to 208Y120V transformer and run those motors on 208V 60Hz, so long as the 20% higher speed is not an issue for whatever that machine does.

And as was said, your electrician is confused as to the Wye or Delta issue. It's not an issue at all. Apples and oranges.
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