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View Poll Results: Do you think LEDs are better than fluorescent for lighting?
Nearly always 55 62.50%
sometimes 23 26.14%
generally not 8 9.09%
Never 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-03-2015, 05:52 PM   #41
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:32 PM   #42
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i 'communicated', i thimk...............~CS~
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:46 PM   #43
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I don't fear the LED. What I fear is compatibility problems with dimmers. AFCI's they can keep too.
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:42 PM   #44
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I don't fear the LED. What I fear is compatibility problems with dimmers. AFCI's they can keep too.
That's an issue affecting everything other than plain old incandescent lamp.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:20 AM   #45
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That's an issue affecting everything other than plain old incandescent lamp.
I'd rather dim an LED than a fluorescent any day. Never had a problem dimming a dimmable LED. Just use a quality LED and a quality dimmer.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:24 AM   #46
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I tried some LED's (Phillips R20 size) in the 4" Juno cans in my laundry space...the light was good, they dimmed ok (Using Lutron CL Diva dimmer) BUT both lamps' glass "bulbs" cracked in about 1/2 hour of "on" time.

Returned them and will research a good quality alternative to try again.

As for the traffic light use, I think LEDs suck. I have seen far too many with burned-out clusters, flickering and some are too harsh and glare a lot at night. Not a good thing for something that is "safety critical".
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:25 AM   #47
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I'd rather dim an LED than a fluorescent any day. Never had a problem dimming a dimmable LED. Just use a quality LED and a quality dimmer.
People have trouble dimming LED solid state fluorescent lamps all the time. It's a very common complaint. You wouldn't experience problem dimming Mark X fluorescent ballasts with a proper dimmer either.

Lutron has two types of LED(SSFL) ballasts. Variable current or variable pulse duration each having their issues. Current reduction type suffer from serious color shifts as it is dimmed while pulse modulation type suffers from flickering or strobe light effect. When you look at tail lights of cars, you can see them looking like series of tiny dots when they're on low, but the tiny segments disappear when the brake lamps are activated. While this doesn't suffer from color shift, they fast pulsed drive also make it challenging for them to manage radio frequency interference and this type of dimming control experience meeting FCC Class B consumer device interference limitations.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:17 AM   #48
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People have trouble dimming LED solid state fluorescent lamps all the time. It's a very common complaint. You wouldn't experience problem dimming Mark X fluorescent ballasts with a proper dimmer either.

Lutron has two types of LED(SSFL) ballasts. Variable current or variable pulse duration each having their issues. Current reduction type suffer from serious color shifts as it is dimmed while pulse modulation type suffers from flickering or strobe light effect. When you look at tail lights of cars, you can see them looking like series of tiny dots when they're on low, but the tiny segments disappear when the brake lamps are activated. While this doesn't suffer from color shift, they fast pulsed drive also make it challenging for them to manage radio frequency interference and this type of dimming control experience meeting FCC Class B consumer device interference limitations.

I've used Lutron dimmers on Sylvania LED trims with no problems at all. Very easy to set the dimming range etc. I've never noticed the difference in color etc. We installed a bunch of LED trims, bulbs etc. in a high end home with Lutron Radio RA dimmers and they seem to work just fine. I suspect the problem is with using cheap LED dimmers and lights. To be truthful, I've never tried dimming a fluorescent light. Most of the applications where we install fluorescents, dimming isn't a desired option. We still install a lot of T8 and T5 fixtures and I prefer to ignore what some of the "experts" tell you. In a high bay application, T5's are the way to go. A lot of companies push T8's but a light meter will settle the argument.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:15 PM   #49
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I have loved and installed LED for over 5 years now. Put in the time to research the LED BEFORE you sell or install it for a customer. Dimming is tricky but only if you do not do the leg work and learn the product you are installing.

Always look at return on investment. We pay $0.23/kW here. Most new installations pay for themselves within 1 year. Retrofits can too, you have to look at the numbers. It might be a $700 pole light but the customer won't have to pay for maintenance and the $ savings start from day 1.

RAB puts a 10 year warranty on there fixtures! If an LED won't pay for itself in 5 years it shouldn't go in.

CFL and tubes are done... Welcome to the 21rst century.
WOW, I pay .07 so the payback isn't very fast but I use them every chance I get.
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Old 02-05-2015, 01:28 AM   #50
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We pay $0.23/kW here. Most new installations pay for themselves within 1 year. Retrofits can too, you have to look at the numbers. It might be a $700 pole light but the customer won't have to pay for maintenance and the $ savings
Is that resi or comm
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Old 02-05-2015, 01:53 AM   #51
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Is that resi or comm
Average for either. But commercial have demand meters so they can get slammed harder. I went through two years of bill with a bakery. Some months as high as $0.30/kWh. Others much lower. Overall average every time I have calculated works out to 22.7 cents. Only higher rates in Japan is the rumor I heard from PSEGLI but I haven't confirmed.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:36 PM   #52
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Led's are being pushed, by tax payer money, and power company money that you pay in your outrageous monthly bill for using 100 amps.

A huge amount of perfectly fine lighting fixtures are being ripped down and destroyed for no reason other than a political agenda.

There was nothing wrong with the mercury vapor cobra head street lights they have wasted for these LED's that cost $700 a pop! Those mercury vapor cobra head street lights would work for 20 years without a problem, and if they needed repair the cost of the stock( Lamp and Ballast) was less than $100, LED's you must replace the fixture at the big price...
Over the lifetime of a fixture that runs 12 hrs a day, what do you think costs more, the purchase price of the fixture or the electricity consumption?
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:38 PM   #53
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Over the lifetime of a fixture that runs 12 hrs a day, what do you think costs more, the purchase price of the fixture or the electricity consumption?
You didn't lay out all the feasible options.

There's before (mercury vapor, incandescent whatever.... )
and the cost of all options should be evaluated. Not just the most expensive one.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:40 PM   #54
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To me it depends on how old you are and what kind of light you prefer. The price is keeping me out and cfls "soft" white is adequate.
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Old 02-06-2015, 02:35 AM   #55
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I have a 150W HPS in my driveway that's been burning for 14yrs, never changed a lamp. Not sure how long it was in service before I removed it from a job site.
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Old 02-06-2015, 02:49 AM   #56
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I have a 150W HPS in my driveway that's been burning for 14yrs, never changed a lamp. Not sure how long it was in service before I removed it from a job site.
That's the equivalent of 80 watts of LED, assuming 10 cents a KWH and 12 hrs a night and that your HPS only draws 150 watts, that luminary cost you $340 more to run than had you been running LED all that time.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:38 AM   #57
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That's the equivalent of 80 watts of LED, assuming 10 cents a KWH and 12 hrs a night and that your HPS only draws 150 watts, that luminary cost you $340 more to run than had you been running LED all that time.
Putting HPS, CFL and LEDs aside.

I got 4,292kWh. We could have left it as 4,292kWh, but since we're converting to dollars and cents... let's compare notes. What interest rate did you use? I used 3% and came within $10 of your estimate.

With a rate of 10c/kWh that gives you $429.20 in bill credit over 14 years as $2.555/month credit is worth $350 at 3% annual rate. So whatever the 80W replacement for the 150W thingy with a 15 year warranty better not increase the price by more than $350 installed on top of replacing with identical HPS setup.


Stop saying/using/marketing payback periods, you’re shooting yourself in the foot!.... http://thegreenlightdistrikt.com/201...ayback-period/
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:06 AM   #58
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It's 2 AM here so I don't want to do the math but you should buy the LEDs outright and put the calculated savings in a high interest bank account.

So 14 years of that will make you smile.

Then there is the Super Bowl thread... have to dig it up but they cut their consumption by about 2/3rds. Do the math on that baby and the NFL can easily afford another cheerleader.
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:26 AM   #59
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It's 2 AM here so I don't want to do the math but you should buy the LEDs outright and put the calculated savings in a high interest bank account.

So 14 years of that will make you smile.
When you put money in bank, it doesn't sit in a jar somewhere. They rent it out to someone else and that someone else have to pay a fee for the use of lump sum of money. If you have the money to pay cash for a large quantity of LEDs, you probably have cash sitting around that you couldn't find use for. Just keep in mind that you could have a *MUCH* higher ROI by using the money to pay off a higher interest loan in lump sump.

20 year payback period with no return on investment is only relevant to fat Government cows.
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:30 AM   #60
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Then there is the Super Bowl thread... have to dig it up but they cut their consumption by about 2/3rds. Do the math on that baby and the NFL can easily afford another cheerleader.
They are fashion accessories, figuratively speaking. It's an advertisement and publicity expense.
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