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View Poll Results: Do you think LEDs are better than fluorescent for lighting?
Nearly always 55 62.50%
sometimes 23 26.14%
generally not 8 9.09%
Never 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2015, 06:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post

20 year payback period with no return on investment is only relevant to fat Government cows.
As i detailed in post #14, they just pull numbers out of thin air w/o having to be accountable for them


~CS~
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
As i detailed in post #14, they just pull numbers out of thin air w/o having to be accountable for them


~CS~
Voices of people matter somewhat but as you can see from various threads, there's a lack of familiarity with the relevance of discounted payback rates. The public approval rate for these projects will be lower if they're given a clear image of the actual cost of "green".

Scratches left by chicken in attachments of post 14 were too tiny and I didn't read the fine prints.
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Old 02-06-2015, 02:02 PM   #63
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That's the equivalent of 80 watts of LED, assuming 10 cents a KWH and 12 hrs a night and that your HPS only draws 150 watts, that luminary cost you $340 more to run than had you been running LED all that time.
I don't believe for one second that a similar HPS "luminary" would have the equivalent light output and rated life after 14 years of operation. In fact, I believe the LED would probably have given up the ghost long before then.
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Old 02-06-2015, 03:55 PM   #64
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Don't forget the duallies. Rated life of 40,000 hours +
Instant Restrike High Pressure Sodium Lamps
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/...ads/p-2220.pdf
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:31 PM   #65
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I don't even bother with incandescent bulbs and trims for hihats unless it's a builder and cheap homeowner. But in all honesty, I paid $6 a piece again for 4" LED trims from Costco for a soffit job. It just don't make sense to sell CFL or incandescent lighting for inside the home. I'll still install HPS and MH outside but I always try to upsell LED. I already had a bad taste from Induction from a cobra head I installed so that garbage is out.
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:22 PM   #66
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I went on a tour of RAB in NJ. The way LED are labeled in Lumen is direct light output. End of life is when an LED is producing 70% of original benchmark. HPS, MH, inc, etc lumen is based on 100% of the unshielded bulb on day zero. Actual lumens of non LED are much lower than label says. If you can get to NJ I would say a tour of RAB is worth the time. Www.rabweb.com they gave me a $110 led for taking the free tour.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:47 PM   #67
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I went on a tour of RAB in NJ. The way LED are labeled in Lumen is direct light output.
For fixtures, yes. You're always supposed to multiple it by fixture's efficiency, which can fall anywhere in between 50-95%.

I believe LED luminaires will have direct lumens per watt 2-3 times higher than MH in wall packs and cobra heads. 1.5 to 2 times... I'd say relative to HPS. It's just my guesstimate factoring in optical and lumen depreciation.

Quote:
End of life is when an LED is producing 70% of original benchmark.
Which I suppose is fair if the competitor is MH.

Quote:
HPS, MH, inc, etc lumen is based on 100% of the unshielded bulb on day zero.
Discharge lamps are usually rated in initial and mean at 40% of rated life. LED is the only one that does it weird and rate it in initial only and tell you the speculated lumen using a speculated life. It'd be interesting to see the actual lumen loss curve of everything. LED is the only one we do not have the long term data for.


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Actual lumens of non LED are much lower than label says. If you can get to NJ I would say a tour of RAB is worth the time.
I would not make this statement. How much lower hugely depends on the fixture. Personally, I think every fixture should have optical efficiency clearly printed. Fixture like lamps like down lights don't have a optical loss factor to apply. If you use an "LED light bulb" in a globe or a fixture, the loss carries over.

Just as reference points... from best to worst lumen maintenance

LPS or
25W 48" 2XL T8 2400 new, 2305 lm, 96% @ 24,000 hrs. (at 40% of life) 92% at 60,000 hrs

F40CW (20,000 hr rated life):3,050 lm initial. 2,680 lm after 8,000 hrs(40% of life)

HPS, incandescents.

LEDs are all over the map, but the specs are speculated hours until 70% output... or 50% or 90%. You need to check. If it doesn't say, they use 70%.

GE Ultra CMH 70% @ 14,000 hrs
400W MH 70% @ 7,000 hrs, 50% @ 13,000 hrs
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:02 AM   #68
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When you put money in bank, it doesn't sit in a jar somewhere. They rent it out to someone else and that someone else have to pay a fee for the use of lump sum of money. If you have the money to pay cash for a large quantity of LEDs, you probably have cash sitting around that you couldn't find use for. Just keep in mind that you could have a *MUCH* higher ROI by using the money to pay off a higher interest loan in lump sump.

20 year payback period with no return on investment is only relevant to fat Government cows.
Without using a bunch of fuzzy math, think of it this way. If I install a LED trim that costs me double the cost of a regular trim with a incandescent bulb and uses 10 watts versus 65 watts, how can that not pay off.
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Old 02-07-2015, 04:01 AM   #69
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Without using a bunch of fuzzy math, think of it this way. If I install a LED trim that costs me double the cost of a regular trim with a incandescent bulb and uses 10 watts versus 65 watts, how can that not pay off.
"fuzzy math" is what sets fantasy apart from reality. Fuzzy math is the entire reason how the economy runs. Double the price at real cost or after social welfare taxes funded from utility bill fees? When you see LEDs sell with a quantity limit, not on advertised sale and buying in singles is substantially cheaper than a 4 pack or a 10 pack, that usually means it's socialized.

I under-estimated the efficiency of BR reflector gas discharge fluorescent lamps. 50 LPW is not bad for BR since commercial cans that use quad tube CFLs are usually about 30 LPW total.

Regular BR shape CFL: $20 for 6.
15W 750 lm 50 lm/W, 10,000 hours to 50% failure. Not including driver failure.

Cree LED pumped solid state fluorescent lamp. $18 EACH. $108 for 6.
9.5W 650 lm 68.4 lm/W 25,000 hours to 70% output. Not including driver failure.

27% less power per lumen.
15% less output.
37% less power.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:52 AM   #70
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"fuzzy math" is what sets fantasy apart from reality. Fuzzy math is the entire reason how the economy runs. Double the price at real cost or after social welfare taxes funded from utility bill fees? When you see LEDs sell with a quantity limit, not on advertised sale and buying in singles is substantially cheaper than a 4 pack or a 10 pack, that usually means it's socialized.

I under-estimated the efficiency of BR reflector gas discharge fluorescent lamps. 50 LPW is not bad for BR since commercial cans that use quad tube CFLs are usually about 30 LPW total.

Regular BR shape CFL: $20 for 6.
15W 750 lm 50 lm/W, 10,000 hours to 50% failure. Not including driver failure.

Cree LED pumped solid state fluorescent lamp. $18 EACH. $108 for 6.
9.5W 650 lm 68.4 lm/W 25,000 hours to 70% output. Not including driver failure.

27% less power per lumen.
15% less output.
37% less power.
Are actually touting BR CFLs!!!!! I have my own personal opinion on CFLs. Show me a CFL in an enclosed fixture or even in an open fixture where the bulb hangs upside down (the ballast portion is up inside the shade) and prove to me that they'll last for the rated hours!
Where are you getting 6 BR CFL's, made by a reputable company for $20?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-6...5yc1vZbmatZ15b

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-6...matZ15bZ2bctr7

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-6...matZ15bZ2bctr7
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:57 AM   #71
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"fuzzy math" is what sets fantasy apart from reality. Fuzzy math is the entire reason how the economy runs. Double the price at real cost or after social welfare taxes funded from utility bill fees? When you see LEDs sell with a quantity limit, not on advertised sale and buying in singles is substantially cheaper than a 4 pack or a 10 pack, that usually means it's socialized.
That's what irks me the most about "green" lighting. It's funded by money that is taken at gunpoint from ratepayers.
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Old 02-07-2015, 12:00 PM   #72
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That's what irks me the most about "green" lighting. It's funded by money that is taken at gunpoint from ratepayers.
Explain how rate payers are making LED's cheaper all the time. Around here, if there is any sort of rebate, the same rebate is allowed for fluorescents.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:02 PM   #73
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Are actually touting BR CFLs!!!!! I have my own personal opinion on CFLs. Show me a CFL in an enclosed fixture or even in an open fixture where the bulb hangs upside down (the ballast portion is up inside the shade) and prove to me that they'll last for the rated hours!
BR CFL lamps are intended for use in down lights. I can't prove what you're asking nor can you prove the same for LED solid state CFLs.

Most CFLs, including solid state fluorescent lamps like the Cree pcLED discourage use in enclosed fixtures. semi-enclosed means something like a desk lamp or a porch light that's open in the bottom.

http://www.cree.com/Lighting/Tools-a...ort/FAQ-Indoor
Q:
Can your lamps be installed in enclosed housings?
A:
Our lamps are designed for open air and semi-enclosed housings, but not recommended for fully enclosed housings.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:06 PM   #74
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One application where I like LED over fluorescent would be under cabinet lighting. Another application would be in an area where it would be difficult to re-lamp.
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Old 02-07-2015, 06:28 PM   #75
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Well educated decision maker promotes making informed decision and reduces faddish addition of LEDs into "shall be" lists.
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Old 02-07-2015, 08:18 PM   #76
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BR CFL lamps are intended for use in down lights. I can't prove what you're asking nor can you prove the same for LED solid state CFLs.

Most CFLs, including solid state fluorescent lamps like the Cree pcLED discourage use in enclosed fixtures. semi-enclosed means something like a desk lamp or a porch light that's open in the bottom.

http://www.cree.com/Lighting/Tools-a...ort/FAQ-Indoor
Q:
Can your lamps be installed in enclosed housings?
A:
Our lamps are designed for open air and semi-enclosed housings, but not recommended for fully enclosed housings.
If they put the same amount of heat sinking in the CFL's as they do in the LED's, they might last longer. I've had very poor luck with CFL's holding up. The best thing to do is to try it out for yourself and see what bulb last the longest in fixtures. The problem with the CFL's is when you install them in a down position, the heat rises and the ballast overheats and burns out. They're also a very poor choice for outdoor fixtures if you're in a cold climate. Don't get me wrong, I use a lot of fluorescent T8 and T5 fixtures but LED's are the wave of the future.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:12 PM   #77
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If they put the same amount of heat sinking in the CFL's as they do in the LED's, they might last longer. I've had very poor luck with CFL's holding up. The best thing to do is to try it out for yourself and see what bulb last the longest in fixtures. The problem with the CFL's is when you install them in a down position, the heat rises and the ballast overheats and burns out.
Does your CFL experience include earlier ones from the 20th century?

You need a controlled setup to have a consistent result. They do that sort of test at the Lighting Research Center all the time, but it takes a lot of time. You need 20-30 lamps of each kind and run them on a controlled cycle. It's a very expensive test and takes a long time to get the result.

The glass bulb Cree SSFL LED came with a 10 year warranty, but their new 4 FLOW SSFLs only come with three years, which is the same as what many CFLs come with.

Both standard and solid state fluorescent lamps use a similar driver and they all experience increased decay due to heat and solder joints all experience fatigue due to thermal cycling. LED fluorescent lamps change the fluorescent lamp element from the electric discharge technology to solid state technology and this does not change driver issues.

Some "LED bulbs" like Philips Slim Style have a self destruction protection sensor that lowers the ballast factor of the lamp when the ambient is too hot. This reduces the chance of ballast or lamp failure, but if it's throttled all the time, you get reduced output all the time.

Quote:
They're also a very poor choice for outdoor fixtures if you're in a cold climate. Don't get me wrong, I use a lot of fluorescent T8 and T5 fixtures but LED's are the wave of the future.
How cold? Some CFLs do just fine in the cold, like BR type as the lamps are shielded from the cold.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:58 PM   #78
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Does your CFL experience include earlier ones from the 20th century?

You need a controlled setup to have a consistent result. They do that sort of test at the Lighting Research Center all the time, but it takes a lot of time. You need 20-30 lamps of each kind and run them on a controlled cycle. It's a very expensive test and takes a long time to get the result.

The glass bulb Cree SSFL LED came with a 10 year warranty, but their new 4 FLOW SSFLs only come with three years, which is the same as what many CFLs come with.

Both standard and solid state fluorescent lamps use a similar driver and they all experience increased decay due to heat and solder joints all experience fatigue due to thermal cycling. LED fluorescent lamps change the fluorescent lamp element from the electric discharge technology to solid state technology and this does not change driver issues.

Some "LED bulbs" like Philips Slim Style have a self destruction protection sensor that lowers the ballast factor of the lamp when the ambient is too hot. This reduces the chance of ballast or lamp failure, but if it's throttled all the time, you get reduced output all the time.


How cold? Some CFLs do just fine in the cold, like BR type as the lamps are shielded from the cold.
I'd much rather test them in a "real world" environment. Put the CFL's in a fixture and see how long they'll survive. Replace them with LED's and set back and enjoy. I've never used Cree products. I've mostly used LED's trims from Sylvania. Just installed 94 of them in a new home. Very impressed. What would you use to replace incandescents in a ceiling fan? In a standard ceiling fixture?
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Old 02-09-2015, 04:05 AM   #79
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I'd much rather test them in a "real world" environment. Put the CFL's in a fixture and see how long they'll survive. Replace them with LED's and set back and enjoy. I've never used Cree products. I've mostly used LED's trims from Sylvania. Just installed 94 of them in a new home. Very impressed. What would you use to replace incandescents in a ceiling fan? In a standard ceiling fixture?
Just installed suggests they have not even seen 100 hours.
Warranty is a future liability for the manufacturer, so the recent trend to shorten warranty on LEDs is suggestive of something.

I know it's a hard pill for you to swallow, but you'll have to take my word on this. If the hat brim is metal and it gets warm, you can expect it to have less failures. The access to fresh room side air makes a huge difference. These heat sinks are quite effective and a 10W solid state fluorescent brim barely gets warm.

I've probably got about 15 CREE A19 LED bulb solid state fluorescent lamps from several production lots. I haven't obtained any of the new 4 FLOW to do destructive testing with. These were the cheapest retail priced ones for a while, but only bought as devices under test. About half of them were damaged or destroyed in various steps. One DUT fried on power up. Two Cree DUT fell apart during normal handling and exposed hazardous voltage (DC 230v).

Using as indicated in a task lamp open on the bottom and vented on top, Cree LED fluorescent lamps reached these temperatures on the fins near the base:

Cree 800 LM BA19-08027OMF 9.5W A19 200F
Cree 1600LM BA21-18027OMF 18W A21 210F (Significantly larger heatsink)


These are common warranty conditions for commercial fluorescent ballasts. What does this tell you about temperature and failure probability?

This one is from Osram Sylvania:
High Ambient Applications:
90C Max. Case Temp. (3 yr. warranty) 195F

Standard Ambient Applications:
70C Max. Case Temp. (5 yr. warranty) 160F
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:22 AM   #80
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Just installed suggests they have not even seen 100 hours.
Warranty is a future liability for the manufacturer, so the recent trend to shorten warranty on LEDs is suggestive of something.

I know it's a hard pill for you to swallow, but you'll have to take my word on this. If the hat brim is metal and it gets warm, you can expect it to have less failures. The access to fresh room side air makes a huge difference. These heat sinks are quite effective and a 10W solid state fluorescent brim barely gets warm.

I've probably got about 15 CREE A19 LED bulb solid state fluorescent lamps from several production lots. I haven't obtained any of the new 4 FLOW to do destructive testing with. These were the cheapest retail priced ones for a while, but only bought as devices under test. About half of them were damaged or destroyed in various steps. One DUT fried on power up. Two Cree DUT fell apart during normal handling and exposed hazardous voltage (DC 230v).

Using as indicated in a task lamp open on the bottom and vented on top, Cree LED fluorescent lamps reached these temperatures on the fins near the base:

Cree 800 LM BA19-08027OMF 9.5W A19 200F
Cree 1600LM BA21-18027OMF 18W A21 210F (Significantly larger heatsink)


These are common warranty conditions for commercial fluorescent ballasts. What does this tell you about temperature and failure probability?

This one is from Osram Sylvania:
High Ambient Applications:
90C Max. Case Temp. (3 yr. warranty) 195F

Standard Ambient Applications:
70C Max. Case Temp. (5 yr. warranty) 160F
Sorry, these weren't the first ones we've installed. We've been installing them probably since about the time they were available at the supply house. Never had a failure yet........... If you install cheap junk, expect failures. I've had very little trouble with the linear flourescents I've installed. Probably the most trouble I've had is ballast failure in troffers. What's the warranty on the ballast of a troffer? One year, correct?
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