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Old 02-12-2015, 11:15 PM   #41
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And like I said EGC is not life safety so what are we debating now
That simply is not true. The NEC (and common sense) mandates all metallic non-current carrying parts and paths be bonded by a low impedance path back to the source. The reason for that is so those parts do not become energized and therefore pose a risk to human life. A short circuit or ground fault to a metallic path will immediately open the OCPD, removing the hazard.
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Old 02-13-2015, 10:55 PM   #42
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If I was in a pool area I would sure as hell hope there was a gfci on it. Egc wouldn't do anything..
I was hit because I stuck a metal razor blade in it not because of water being present. But I agree it was done right being on the GFCI its just the GFCI failed.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:20 PM   #43
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That simply is not true. The NEC (and common sense) mandates all metallic non-current carrying parts and paths be bonded by a low impedance path back to the source. The reason for that is so those parts do not become energized and therefore pose a risk to human life. A short circuit or ground fault to a metallic path will immediately open the OCPD, removing the hazard.
In a growing plastic nation more and more items are becoming plastic and being manufactured with 2 wire supply cords. Grounding will do nothing to aid in shock intervention. As to grounding metal framed appliances, i think gfci protection is an absolute waste of money.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:35 PM   #44
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In a growing plastic nation more and more items are becoming plastic and being manufactured with 2 wire supply cords. Grounding will do nothing to aid in shock intervention. As to grounding metal framed appliances, i think gfci protection is an absolute waste of money.
We should go Japanese, everything they have (well, almost everything) is double insulated and 2 prong. 100 volts to being safer.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:44 PM   #45
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We should go Japanese, everything they have (well, almost everything) is double insulated and 2 prong. 100 volts to being safer.
And no AFCI's either.
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:11 AM   #46
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And no AFCI's either.
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Old 02-14-2015, 05:42 AM   #47
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Old 02-14-2015, 05:56 AM   #48
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I was hit because I stuck a metal razor blade in it not because of water being present. But I agree it was done right being on the GFCI its just the GFCI failed.
You maybe felt a shock, but it may have been below 4-6 ma. required to trip a gfi. Did you go and push the test button after to verify a faulty device?
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Old 02-14-2015, 11:39 AM   #49
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That simply is not true. The NEC (and common sense) mandates all metallic non-current carrying parts and paths be bonded by a low impedance path back to the source. The reason for that is so those parts do not become energized and therefore pose a risk to human life. A short circuit or ground fault to a metallic path will immediately open the OCPD, removing the hazard.
I agree with this statement 100%. However, just to add to the confusion, I have a textbook that states explicitly grounding/bonding are for equipment protection and gfci's are for personnel protection.
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Old 02-14-2015, 11:46 AM   #50
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A short circuit or ground fault to a metallic path will immediately open the OCPD, removing the hazard.
Yes it will, but if you are in series with that for any reason, the breaker will not open and you will most likely die. That's what the GFCI is there to prevent.

The premise of the OP is inaccurate IMO because it's not a question of either/or.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:17 PM   #51
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Equipment ground is to facilitate the opening of a breaker in the event of a short. It's very possible for a person to come between the short and the breaker. As it is very possible for a person to come between a fault and not tripping the breaker. I'm not sure what you guys don't get about that.? And I'm not saying that equipment grounds aren't importatnt. But if I was in a pool for instance I would hope it's on a gfci. As if it was just grounded and bonded you could still get k8lled. Oi yeh....we're is brian when you need him
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:17 PM   #52
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I agree with this statement 100%. However, just to add to the confusion, I have a textbook that states explicitly grounding/bonding are for equipment protection and gfci's are for personnel protection.
That textbook is wrong then.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:19 PM   #53
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Yes it will, but if you are in series with that for any reason, the breaker will not open and you will most likely die. That's what the GFCI is there to prevent.
Many circuits do not contain GFCI protection, so I have no idea how this applies.

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The premise of the OP is inaccurate IMO because it's not a question of either/or.
Yeah, whatever.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:20 PM   #54
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Equipment ground is to facilitate the opening of a breaker in the event of a short. It's very possible for a person to come between the short and the breaker. As it is very possible for a person to come between a fault and not tripping the breaker. I'm not sure what you guys don't get about that.? And I'm not saying that equipment grounds aren't importatnt. But if I was in a pool for instance I would hope it's on a gfci. As if it was just grounded and bonded you could still get k8lled.
Some situations call for an added level of protection, so the NEC requires GFCI's.

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Yeah, because only Brian knows everything about electricity.
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:24 PM   #55
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I trust brian 1000 times more than you just like gfci in a pool over "EQUIPMENT" ground...lmao
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:27 PM   #56
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I trust brian 1000 times more than you just like gfci in a pool over "EQUIPMENT" ground...lmao
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:20 PM   #57
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Who is Brain?
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:54 PM   #58
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I agree with this statement 100%. However, just to add to the confusion, I have a textbook that states explicitly grounding/bonding are for equipment protection and gfci's are for personnel protection.
I have a text book that say the ground rod is for to trip a breaker. Along with other questionable assumptions. Older text books were guilty of this.
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Old 02-14-2015, 02:00 PM   #59
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Equipment ground is to facilitate the opening of a breaker in the event of a short. It's very possible for a person to come between the short and the breaker. As it is very possible for a person to come between a fault and not tripping the breaker. I'm not sure what you guys don't get about that.? And I'm not saying that equipment grounds aren't importatnt. But if I was in a pool for instance I would hope it's on a gfci. As if it was just grounded and bonded you could still get k8lled. Oi yeh....we're is brian when you need him

Please tell me how a person can come between the short and the breaker

Unless you are talking about a person opening up an appliance and putting there hand on a hot and the other on the frame... in that case you would be at fault for serving a live appliance, where not even a GFCI may protect you such as if you were to grab live and neutral at the same time.


Now if talking about dropping something into a pool, an EGC with a GFCI would 100% guarantee clearing where a GFCI only may not if the pool water was ungrounded.


GFCIs do not sense water. They sense an imbalance.
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Old 02-14-2015, 02:16 PM   #60
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I have a text book that say the ground rod is for to trip a breaker. Along with other questionable assumptions. Older text books were guilty of this.
Cool, my book is only a couple years old. I find it more beneficial to learn here on ET.
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