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Old 06-24-2019, 09:17 AM   #1
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Default Failed inspection GEC

Hey everybody happy Monday morning. I've got this new inspector in a town that I've never failed an inspection in come fail my job. The gec in a finished basement did not reach The factory installed ground bars so I threaded 1/4 20 machine screw into the back securing a one hole lug large enough for the gec. The code reference that this inspector gave me for why I failed is 250. 24 a 1
The panel is a 200 amp main breaker GE that has no paint on its enclosure.
My thoughts are he's incorrect because 250. 8A 6 says what I did is an acceptable means for grounding electrode conductors. I'm going to argue with him later probably when he calls back and I wanted to see what you guys said. Also he's not the type that you want to let get away with anything wrong because I can already see how that will only lead to more fallacious failings. He really pissed my customer off when he ripped the ground wire going to the ground rods out of the ground so he could verify that there was two ground rods even though they were clearly visible if one looks . So please don't try to lecture me on why I should just go along with what the inspector say as some of you try to do all the time here. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I believe I'm right and I'd like to know why your thoughts are what they are . Thank you
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:21 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPNortheast View Post
Hey everybody happy Monday morning. I've got this new inspector in a town that I've never failed an inspection in come fail my job. The gec in a finished basement did not reach The factory installed ground bars so I threaded 1/4 20 machine screw into the back securing a one hole lug large enough for the gec. The code reference that this inspector gave me for why I failed is 250. 24 a 1
The panel is a 200 amp main breaker GE that has no paint on its enclosure.
My thoughts are he's incorrect because 250. 8A 6 says what I did is an acceptable means for grounding electrode conductors. I'm going to argue with him later probably when he calls back and I wanted to see what you guys said. Also he's not the type that you want to let get away with anything wrong because I can already see how that will only lead to more fallacious failings. He really pissed my customer off when he ripped the ground wire going to the ground rods out of the ground so he could verify that there was two ground rods even though they were clearly visible if one looks . So please don't try to lecture me on why I should just go along with what the inspector say as some of you try to do all the time here. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I believe I'm right and I'd like to know why your thoughts are what they are . Thank you
I can't look up the code right now so I don't know what articles you referred to. But my understanding is that the GEC has to land on the neutral bar, not the ground bar or backpanel.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:23 AM   #3
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By the way what he told me I could do to correct this is put in a double barrel love with a jumper that goes over to the Ground Bar. I do believe that 250 clearly states the gec Must Be Unbroken point to point so this is strikes me as odd and tells me that the guy doesn't know that much but this is trying to wield his power around.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:30 AM   #4
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By the way what he told me I could do to correct this is put in a double barrel love with a jumper that goes over to the Ground Bar. I do believe that 250 clearly states the gec Must Be Unbroken point to point so this is strikes me as odd and tells me that the guy doesn't know that much but this is trying to wield his power around.

Just to add onto my earlier statement, while you are supposed to land the GEC on the neutral bar, you can land it on the ground bar if you run a #4 jumper from the ground bar to the neutral bar. What the inspector said would be the same as doing that, only using a 2 hole lug instead of a ground bar.

What you can't do is rely on that little green screw that bonds the neutral to the backpanel.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by WPNortheast View Post
Hey everybody happy Monday morning. I've got this new inspector in a town that I've never failed an inspection in come fail my job. The gec in a finished basement did not reach The factory installed ground bars so I threaded 1/4 20 machine screw into the back securing a one hole lug large enough for the gec. The code reference that this inspector gave me for why I failed is 250. 24 a 1
The panel is a 200 amp main breaker GE that has no paint on its enclosure.
My thoughts are he's incorrect because 250. 8A 6 says what I did is an acceptable means for grounding electrode conductors. I'm going to argue with him later probably when he calls back and I wanted to see what you guys said. Also he's not the type that you want to let get away with anything wrong because I can already see how that will only lead to more fallacious failings. He really pissed my customer off when he ripped the ground wire going to the ground rods out of the ground so he could verify that there was two ground rods even though they were clearly visible if one looks . So please don't try to lecture me on why I should just go along with what the inspector say as some of you try to do all the time here. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I believe I'm right and I'd like to know why your thoughts are what they are . Thank you
I'm on vacation and have no time to look it up, but @HackWork is correct, it has to land on the grounding bar in the panel. Something about not being permitted to modify a listed piece of equipment. In this case a panel. I think there's something in Article 90 about to.

Someone will be along with the code references, but yeah, technically your wrong. It's one of those senseless code violations that defy common sense, but it is what it is.

Back in the day inspectors used to turn a blind eye to it. I guess the insurance companies and manufacturers made a big stink about it somewhere along the line and they've been enforcing it ever since.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:43 AM   #6
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i don't know your code obviously so I cannot help in that regard, but up when the ground was not long enough I would just crimp a length to it to get it to land on the neutral bar; is that an option for you down South?

If you used a crimp connection, it was considered "unbroken" unlike a split bolt or other mechanical connection.

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Old 06-24-2019, 09:45 AM   #7
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There are three places you can terminate a service GEC. Either up at the service head, in the meter pan or on the bonded neutral bar in the disconnect/main panel.

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Old 06-24-2019, 09:48 AM   #8
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There are three places you can terminate a service GEC. Either up at the service head, in the meter pan or on the bonded neutral bar in the disconnect/main panel.

https://youtu.be/wyPTtN6QjzQ
"or on the bonded neutral bar in the disconnect/main panel."

To add onto that, running a bus bar or conductor to a ground bar in a main panel will make it a neutral bar, and the GEC can be landed there.

And that is where his inspector is going with the double lug thing.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:57 AM   #9
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Hack what's your code reference.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:58 AM   #10
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250. 8 clearly states that a threaded machine screw is acceptable means for connecting with GC
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:00 AM   #11
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GeC*
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:19 AM   #12
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250. 8 clearly states that a threaded machine screw is acceptable means for connecting with GC
It is, but that doesn't mean (as an extreme example) that you can connect it to the front door frame with a threaded machine screw and get away with it. You need to connect it to the correct spot, which that article doesn't go into.

This says you have to connect the GEC to the neutral bar:

250.24(1) General. The grounding electrode conductor connection
shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the
overhead service conductors, service drop, underground service
conductors, or service lateral to, including the terminal or
bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at
the service disconnecting means.

This allows you to connect it to the ground bar if you use a bus bar or conductor:

250.24(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar. Where the main
bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar and is
installed from the grounded conductor terminal bar or bus to
the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus in the service
equipment, the grounding electrode conductor shall be
permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal,
bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected.
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:21 AM   #13
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A bus is anywhere multiple electrical connections are made. The enclosure of the panel becomes a bus since multiplr connections are made to it, such as every single grounding conductor in the house. Not specific enough to fail an inspection lamp again more of a preference by the inspector
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:22 AM   #14
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But I appreciate your reply to the thread and explaining your logic
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:23 AM   #15
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A bus is anywhere multiple electrical connections are made. The enclosure of the panel becomes a bus since multiplr connections are made to it, such as every single grounding conductor in the house. Not specific enough to fail an inspection lamp again more of a preference by the inspector
Tell that to the lions in the Colloseam
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:24 AM   #16
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A door frame however is in no way shape or form ever an electrical bus
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:26 AM   #17
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A door frame however is in no way shape or form ever an electrical bus
Vehicles and ships
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by WPNortheast View Post
A bus is anywhere multiple electrical connections are made. The enclosure of the panel becomes a bus since multiplr connections are made to it, such as every single grounding conductor in the house.
Some panels use a bus bar to connect the two neutral bars together. That is what they are talking about in the code article I posted.

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A door frame however is in no way shape or form ever an electrical bus
You're right, it's not a bus bar, and neither is the backpanel of a loadcenter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WPNortheast View Post
Not specific enough to fail an inspection lamp again more of a preference by the inspector

But I appreciate your reply to the thread and explaining your logic
This is not my logic nor is it a preference by the inspector, it is the code. You are the first person who I have seen challenge this code requirement.

Have you watched the Mike Holt video above? Or searched this topic on Mike Holt's forum? The consensus is clear.

If you've ever read any of my posts, you'd know that I am the last person to agree with an inspector. I still maintain that they should all be summarily executed. But in this instance, he is enforcing the code correctly. You can land an EGC to a single lug bolted to the backpanel, but not a GEC.

I would still like to find a relative inexpensive crimper and crimps for #4 copper to end all of this GEC frustration.
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Old 06-24-2019, 01:37 PM   #19
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Interesting read:
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=60771

Another one, with this quote: "If the main bonding jumper is a screw, like in a residential panel then you must use the neutral bus. If the MBJ is made of bus or is a wire conductor, like in a large switchboard then you can terminate the GEC on either bus."
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=151507

There are dozens of these discussions over there if you want to read the substantiation.
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Old 06-24-2019, 03:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WPNortheast View Post
A bus is anywhere multiple electrical connections are made. The enclosure of the panel becomes a bus since multiplr connections are made to it, such as every single grounding conductor in the house. Not specific enough to fail an inspection lamp again more of a preference by the inspector
This is not true. The panel is not a listed assembly for grounding

Quote:
250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
(A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors,
grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be
connected by one or more of the following means:
(1) Listed pressure connectors
(2) Terminal bars
(3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
equipment
(4) Exothermic welding process
(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than
two threads or are secured with a nut
(6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than
two threads in the enclosure
(7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
(8) Other listed means
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