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Old 01-20-2018, 12:37 PM   #1141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy View Post
Alot of people use kenny clamps , plastic romex connector or metal romex connectors. Should any one of these not be used?
any of these are perfectly suited for paper weights (might have to use a box of the plastic ones)
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:48 PM   #1142
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Something else I have noticed is how the code makes sure to state "ferrous" in parts of 250 and that low and behold the Kenny Clamp is brass as is the Bridgeport alternative while the Arlington GEC connector is zinc. All non ferrous metals.
Last time I comment on this subject.

Last edited by bostonPedro; 01-20-2018 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:56 PM   #1143
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Originally Posted by bostonPedro View Post
Something else I have noticed is how the code makes sure to state "ferrous" in parts of 250 and that low and behold the Kenny Clamp is brass as is the Bridgeport alternative while the Arlington GEC connector is zinc. All non ferrous metals.
Who cares?
Quote:
Last time I comment on this subject.
If only that were true...
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:35 PM   #1144
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
Unfortunately I can remember yesterday, let alone 20 or 30 years ago... :-) I would assume it was related to 12-120 or 12-3022 which I think I posted about 500 posts ago!

Cheers

John
Those codes do not apply to the GEC.

Now that the 2018 CEC has made clear descriptions of the words “conductor” and “cable” in the definitions, those codes are also more clear.
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Old 01-20-2018, 06:40 PM   #1145
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Do you say that because it is in Section 12 and not Section 6 or 10?

Rule 12-000 has a pretty broad scope which does not include or exclude anything from Section 6 or 10.

Cheers
John
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Old 01-20-2018, 08:46 PM   #1146
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No I say that because both those codes, 12-120 and 12-3022 use either the words “conductor” or “ cable” which are not used for a GEC therefore they do not apply IMO.

Here are the definitions

Conductor = A conductive material that is constructed for the purpose of carrying electric current

Cable = A complete manufactured assembly of one or more insulated conductors, which may also include optical fibres, fillers, strength members, and insulating and protective material, with a continuous overall covering providing electrical, mechanical, and environmental protection to the assembly

There is also now a definition for a bare conductor which is used as a GEC.

Bare conductor = a conductor having no covering or electrical insulation.

ETA.
12-120(1) conductors shall be supported so that no damaging strain is imposed on the terminals of any electrical apparatus or devices or on joints or taps.

That code could be argued as covering all types of conductors, bare or insulated but would a staple right where it leaves the panel not work?

I think both the CEC and NEC need to address this specifically and in the CEC, is should be in section 10 under 10-116 Installation of grounding conductors.

Last edited by eddy current; 01-20-2018 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 01-20-2018, 08:58 PM   #1147
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Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
No I say that because both those codes, 12-120 and 12-3022 use either the words “conductor” or “ cable” which are not used for a GEC therefore they do not apply IMO.

Here are the definitions

Conductor = A conductive material that is constructed for the purpose of carrying electric current

Cable = A complete manufactured assembly of one or more insulated conductors, which may also include optical fibres, fillers, strength members, and insulating and protective material, with a continuous overall covering providing electrical, mechanical, and environmental protection to the assembly

There is also now a definition for a bare conductor which is used as a GEC.

Bare conductor = a conductor having no covering or electrical insulation.
I don't have a very strong opinion about any of this, but I would like to point out that if we accept that a GEC is a "bare conductor", then it follows that it is therefore a conductor. Conductor is a category, under which a bare conductor falls.

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Old 01-21-2018, 07:14 AM   #1148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
Bottom right hand corner you can see where Square D says their meter pans have a 5/16" KO for the grounding conductor.


Attachment 119074
This concern now has a case # at that manufacturer

~CS~
@chicken steve Can you please give us that case number?



Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
Let me post what i can harvest from the 'powers that be' , and then decide if it's all a waste of time

deal?

~CS~
Yes, deal. Just like I told you last month when you said it. So what have you received from these manufacturers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
This is just ONE source......I'm not done yet ~CS~
It seems like you are done because you still haven't posted on response from any of these manufacturers other than the email from a Milbank sales rep that Milbank confirmed was false.

Let's go, post it. Do something. Acknowledge this like a reasonable adult for once.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:00 AM   #1149
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Originally Posted by bostonPedro View Post
Something else I have noticed is how the code makes sure to state "ferrous" in parts of 250 and that low and behold the Kenny Clamp is brass as is the Bridgeport alternative while the Arlington GEC connector is zinc. All non ferrous metals.
Last time I comment on this subject.
CORRECTED FOR ERRORS.

I could care less about this discussion BUT if you are a believer of the kenny clamp and you are an electrician how to heck would you not realize this just from common knowledge of the materials used.

All nonferrous metals.

How else would it gain its magical properties? One would think it should be a conductive connector IF REQUIRED. This would be better, offering a ground connection at point of entry, which is what we do with conduit.
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Last edited by brian john; 01-21-2018 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:04 AM   #1150
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post

Let's go, post it. Do something. Acknowledge this like a reasonable adult for once.
Steve blatantly slanders other members by calling them racists with no evidence whatsoever. You don't expect someone that dishonest and disgusting to be a stand up guy on this issue, do you?
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:12 AM   #1151
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Try this.


https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Stand...ical-questions
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:16 AM   #1152
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Steve blatantly slanders other members by calling them racists with no evidence whatsoever. You don't expect someone that dishonest and disgusting to be a stand up guy on this issue, do you?
I will make him account for his words and actions. I have accepted it as my duty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
At this point i've probably a good dz emails to reps Dennis , but yes i may need to make a call specifically asking for the engineering dept.
So tell us about these dozen emails that you sent to reps. Please. Why would you continually talk about asking the manufacturers and then ignore when we ask you who you emailed and what they replied with?

Do you realize how bad that makes you look?

Answer for yourself.
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:23 AM   #1153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
Where's Charlie Trout when he's needed?

~CS~
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
We have contacted manufacturers , and we may even make Charlie Trout's code of the day cut Ed

~CS~
So first you throw out Charlie Trout as an authority... Twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
He's here Steve.

From Charlie's code question of the day.

Roger
Then when Roger shows you that Charlie Trout says you are wrong, you post this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
Then I guess it's time for 'old Chuck to retire Roger

~CS~
So not only the entire world (other than 4-5 hold-outs) agree that the GEC doesn't need to be bonded as it exits a panel and that the little hole could be used for the GEC, but the very person who you name dropped as being the ultimate authority does too..

But since he didn't say what you wanted, it's time for him to retire??? He's suddenly dead wrong, so much so that he should just quit???

And still you won't even speak to this BS that you keep posting. Do you really think that ignoring it will make it go away, like a small child would do? It will never, ever stop @chicken steve
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:03 AM   #1154
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Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
No I say that because both those codes, 12-120 and 12-3022 use either the words “conductor” or “ cable” which are not used for a GEC therefore they do not apply IMO.

Here are the definitions

Conductor = A conductive material that is constructed for the purpose of carrying electric current

Cable = A complete manufactured assembly of one or more insulated conductors, which may also include optical fibres, fillers, strength members, and insulating and protective material, with a continuous overall covering providing electrical, mechanical, and environmental protection to the assembly

There is also now a definition for a bare conductor which is used as a GEC.

Bare conductor = a conductor having no covering or electrical insulation.

ETA.
12-120(1) conductors shall be supported so that no damaging strain is imposed on the terminals of any electrical apparatus or devices or on joints or taps.

That code could be argued as covering all types of conductors, bare or insulated but would a staple right where it leaves the panel not work?

I think both the CEC and NEC need to address this specifically and in the CEC, is should be in section 10 under 10-116 Installation of grounding conductors.
OK... so what is the definition of the “Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC)” if it is not “Conductor”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OESC 2015
- Conductor — a wire or cable, or other form of metal, installed for the purpose of conveying electric current from one piece of electrical equipment to another or to ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEC 2012
- Conductor — a wire or cable, or other form of metal, installed for the purpose of conveying electric current from one piece of electrical equipment to another or to ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OESC 2015
- Grounding conductor — the conductor used to connect the service equipment or system to the grounding electrode (see Appendix B).
Quote:
Originally Posted by OESC 2015
OESC 2015 Appendix B - Grounding conductor
It is intended that the grounding conductor will terminate on the enclosure for the service box or protective devices supplying the system in cases where the system is not grounded, and at the internal bus for the grounded conductor where the system is grounded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEC 2015
- Grounding conductor — the conductor used to connect the service equipment or system to the grounding electrode (see Appendix B).
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEC 2015
CEC 2015 Appendix B - Grounding conductor
It is intended that the grounding conductor will terminate on the enclosure for the service box or protective devices supplying the system in cases where the system is not grounded, and at the internal bus for the grounded conductor where the system is grounded.
So I randomly grabbed a rule regarding grounding electrodes (rule 10-702(b)) where it states
Quote:
Originally Posted by OESC 2015
10-702 Spacing and interconnection of grounding electrodes
Quote:
Originally Posted by OESC 2015
Where multiple grounding electrodes exist at a building, including those used for signal circuits, radio, lightning protection, communication, community antenna distribution systems or any other purpose, they shall be
(a) separated by at least 2 m from each other;
(b) bonded together with a conductor
(i) made of material permitted by Rule 10-802 for grounding conductors and sized not smaller than
(A) No. 6 AWG if of copper; or
(B) No. 4 AWG if of aluminum; and
(ii) protected by location from mechanical damage; and
(c) in the case of lightning protection systems, bonded together in accordance with Item (b) at or below ground level.
So I think it is a conductor... I agree that it is not a cable; although I do not know where you found the definition of “Cable” because it is not in the CEC or the OESC (at least under definitions).

In the end, I agree that in theory you do not need a cable connector for support / strain-relief, it is the same discussion about putting NMD into a conduit stub to a box, if it “terminates” in the box you need some sort of strain-relief where it enters the conduit, a staple is considered insufficient.

Cheers
John
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:10 AM   #1155
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I would be honestly interested if CS really has ever used a Kenny clamp IRL. The few pics he is willing to post of his work tell me no.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:18 AM   #1156
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I would be honestly interested if CS really has ever used a Kenny clamp IRL. The few pics he is willing to post of his work tell me no.
I am trying to be open, honest, and fair here, so I will tell you that Steve has posted that he has used romex connectors and the small hole before. He is saying that he always got away with it, but it's still wrong.

His problem is that he can't cite code saying that it's wrong or any manufacturer that won't allow it thru the hole that they put there for the GEC.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:56 PM   #1157
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Why is lighterup getting flack? What did I miss? I tried looking it up, but the search index is out of date.
I was giving it , not getting it.
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Old 01-21-2018, 01:00 PM   #1158
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Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
No I say that because both those codes, 12-120 and 12-3022 use either the words “conductor” or “ cable” which are not used for a GEC therefore they do not apply IMO.

Here are the definitions

Conductor = A conductive material that is constructed for the purpose of carrying electric current

Cable = A complete manufactured assembly of one or more insulated conductors, which may also include optical fibres, fillers, strength members, and insulating and protective material, with a continuous overall covering providing electrical, mechanical, and environmental protection to the assembly

There is also now a definition for a bare conductor which is used as a GEC.

Bare conductor = a conductor having no covering or electrical insulation.

ETA.
12-120(1) conductors shall be supported so that no damaging strain is imposed on the terminals of any electrical apparatus or devices or on joints or taps.

That code could be argued as covering all types of conductors, bare or insulated but would a staple right where it leaves the panel not work?

I think both the CEC and NEC need to address this specifically and in the CEC, is should be in section 10 under 10-116 Installation of grounding conductors.
I agree with this. As I was taught that a GEC is a non current carrying conductor.
"current" is measurable Fault is to high & too fast to measure and opens
the circuit immidiately. Current allows the circuit to function
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Old 01-21-2018, 01:07 PM   #1159
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I was giving it , not getting it.
You're so mean.
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Old 01-21-2018, 01:08 PM   #1160
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You're so mean.
Don't start .or I'll I'll stop stop taking taking my my meds meds
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