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Old 05-06-2018, 01:08 PM   #21
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Your original question was about you working in a junction box, you taking apart the neutrals in the box, and wondering why the neutral measured 0V.

WE, many of us, tried explaining to you that the Neutral and ground were bonded together, and you went on a tangent about resistance changing due to voltage. We asked you some very basic questions, with a basic voltage drop diagram, and you were confused on how a hot wire having 0V on it was because someone wired something wrong.

When in the end of that discussion, that you asked to be closed, it all came down to knowing how to use a meter, and understanding how to interpret the measurements the meter is telling you.

Everyone here is willing to help anyone with anything, unless you are acting and speaking like a bonehead, which you were, hence the response you got.
Okay you're the victim... I was the one acting like a bonehead? Okay... At one point I did consider something I said to be somewhat out of line, even if it was triggered by me feeling like my thread was being spammed. I even stepped up and apologized 2 minutes after because I didn't want anything to escalate, and I truly felt sorry. The issue was that I was stuck on something that no one seamed to understand why I was stuck on it lol. Anyways, it is not my true nature at all to be rude in any way. I really don't want this drama, can we just end this please. This thread was started in order for me to learn, and you are again coming in and hijacking it. Please, I am asking you nicely, please leave me alone. Let me learn on this thread without having to argue and start drama with you or others that want to be assholes. We all have better things to do than to fight over something so pointless. Why even come in here and start this? Please, at this point it is just meaningless drama, it serves no good purpose. Be a bigger man and let it go... I don't want to respond and argue any point you are trying to make, I just want to learn.

Last edited by JasonCo; 05-06-2018 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:16 PM   #22
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Can't help you, if you don't want to help yourself.

Draw it out next time, post a picture and ask away. That way you don't waste everyone's effort trying to help you with questions, when you keep changing them. Be very specific, and everyone will try and help. Being vague will get you nowhere here.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:20 PM   #23
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So the whole V=IR. I guess a 500w heater is to be considered a resistor? Basically all appliances have resistors in them, maybe to protect them from having too much current in them? So basically every single electrical device should have resistors in them? I assume most appliances have fuses also encase something goes wrong with the resistor, to protect the appliance. Maybe to protect a $2,000 tv, or a $1000 coffee maker :P.

Okay so when I'm dealing with V=IR, I have to separate the neutral conductor from the hot conductor when using this equation? Because theoretically isn't the ungrounded conductor and the grounded conductor making continuity through your resistor? What happens if I do a continuity test on my neutral and hot wire when the appliance is plugged in, wouldn't it ring out?

Hmm... Maybe a resistor has too much resistance for a meter to detect continuity? so a meter basically acts as a pass or fail tester lol... Idk just a guess, because I know for sure I don't ever read continuity from hot to neutral lol

But when dealing with V=IR, I only use this equation for either the left side of the resistor or the right side of the resistor? I should treat the resistor as if it is separating the 2 wires?
V=I*R applies to the complete circuit and also any given segment of it. The benefit of having a regulated voltage source is that the current can be reduced to what an appliance needs. Since the current is constrained by the total resistance of the circuit, only what is needed leaves the wall in the first place. That is why you can plug in a phone with a thin wire that draws 500 mA, or a refrigerator with a thick cord that draws 10A, to the same source without the phone blowing up... the voltage remains set and the current is a result of what the total resistance allows through.

Wattage is a measurement of power, P=V*I. However, since V is standardized (in this case 120V) current is implied by how much (or little) resistance the appliance has. A 500w device (assuming it's designed for standard 120V) would draw 4.17 A (500w=120V*4.17A) and therefore has a resistance of 28.8 ohms (120V=4.17A*28.8ohms). Energy can't be created or destroyed, so as the voltage drops through the hot wire, through the appliance, and back down the neutral, it produces "work"... essentially energy is being converted into a different form, such as running the motor in a blender (kinetic), producing heat (thermal). Interestingly, we can know the 20' of 12gauge cable produces 2.83 watts of heat (0.34 V * 8.33 A = 2.83 W) and this is one of the important factors when properly spec'ing cables... thinner wires have higher resistance, more voltage drop in the total circuit, and produce more heat which can potentially melt insulation/start a fire if it's not enough for the required current).

Technically the hot and neutral have """continuity""" through the resistance of the appliance otherwise there wouldn't be a circuit. Keep in mind many appliances have micro circuitry which may interfere with a resistance reading, they often won't behave as just simple resistors. However, most meters define "continuity" at 50-100 ohms or less, essentially you're just measuring resistance and if it's 50-100 ohms (depends on the meter) it will give a tone which is useful for determining points which are electrically common without a significant amount of resistance, like two ends of the same wire. You also can't get reliable resistance readings on a live circuit because the meter determines resistance by producing a known current, measuring the voltage drop, then calculating resistance... so a live circuit interferes because it has its own current (unknown to meter) and voltage drop.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:57 PM   #24
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Let me learn on this thread without having to argue and start drama with you or others that want to be assholes. We all have better things to do than to fight over something so pointless.
Oh...so now we're assholes, because you can't use a meter, and you keep changing your questions?


Nice...
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:17 PM   #25
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Why do you care so much?? Drop this man. What is wrong with you.. You don't consider yourself a jerk for coming into my thread and hijacking it and starting drama in it. Okay... I don't mind a thread getting off topic but this is for all the wrong reasons. I'm soooooo done man. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if it wasn't for you taking this way to far. At this point I have to literally go and find out how I can prevent this, because its clear to me you only have bad intentions at this point, idk what to do. Can we end this? From now on can we talk about what the thread was meant to be for?

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Old 05-06-2018, 03:17 PM   #26
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Guys .,, please keep it civil for now.,

Thanks.
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Old 05-06-2018, 03:50 PM   #27
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Helmut, I realize we are butting heads but I genuinely feel like you are probably a nice guy to get along with. I think things just got out of hand. The fact that you have over 2,000 posts shows how much you care about this forum. I don't want any further issue, I see myself for sure being here long term. Personalities can clash, I myself have to be aware of this. Sometimes I give into certain things when I should just let it go. Anyways, hope everything is good and we can move on in peace. Hope you're having a good weekend.

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Old 05-06-2018, 04:03 PM   #28
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Helmut, I realize we are butting heads but I genuinely feel like you are probably a nice guy to get along with. I think things just got out of hand. The fact that you have over 2,000 posts shows how much you care about this forum. I don't want any further issue, I see myself for sure being here long term. Personalities can clash, I myself have to be aware of this. Sometimes I give into certain things when I should just let it go. Anyways, hope everything is good and we can move on in peace. Hope you're having a good weekend.
Much gooder attitude.
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Old 05-06-2018, 04:24 PM   #29
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Loads have resistance, they don't always have resistor components. Consider for example a lamp, a light bulb - it's basically a filament between hot and neutral. There are no resistors hidden in there, what you see is what you get.

A light bulb has just a significant amount of resistance, for example for a 100 watt 120V bulb

R = V^2 / P = 120 * 120 / 100 = 14400 / 100 = 144 ohms

I = V / R = 120 / 144 = .83 amps

When the bulb takes the electrical energy and converts it to light and heat, it consumes power, in proportion to its resistance. It's a very simple equation but all the relations are very elegantly expressed in it.

Edison spent a LOT of time finding a material that had enough resistance not to burn up but just glow!

I have taught guys dumber than you, and I have taught guys smarter than you, and I'd recommend

doing lots of simple ohms law problems

doing some labs, aka tinkering with bulbs and a battery

that is the formal education process that has worked for generations of electricians, engineers, physicists, etc. Discussion has its place but ultimately is of limited use, IMO you don't need more threads / talk, you need to actually study the material more. After a certain point the discussion becomes frustrating for everyone.
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:38 PM   #30
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Discussion has its place but ultimately is of limited use, IMO you don't need more threads / talk, you need to actually study the material more. After a certain point the discussion becomes frustrating for everyone.
I would hope that anyone who is frustrated should leave the thread alone and let the others keep having a good healthy discussion. The problem is that this isn't happening. This isn't a class room, anyone is capable of not entering this thread without consequence. That is the beauty of a forum. This forum is meant for threads like this, at least imo it is a good place for it.

I'm only TWO pages deep with half of it just a bunch of arguing that I really don't want. I feel like the bad guy here and I don't even know why lol.

In order for me to understand a question, I found out that I need to know something else first, rather than giving up I simply ask it... I see no problem in that. The problem is that it is attracting a ton of negative attention. I have actually had no more than 2 - 3 questions in total, that are all related and will finally allow me to understand it all.

I just want to be left alone and have a healthy discussion for anyone who wants to truly have one lol. I'm ranting now because this is all so confusing to me. I just want to ask a couple questions and be at peace! I don't want anyone to be frustrated, but at the same time I can't control someone's emotions. I'm not the one calling someone dumb, all that has been unfortunately geared at me.

I'm finding that this might be a bit too much to ask for, because these threads keep getting ruined... At least if I'm not understanding something the thread WILL go to complete ****, and that isn't right. I don't care what you say, it's not right. If you are frustrated because someone isn't understanding something, then leave the thread alone. To start bullying the person is out of line, there is no convincing me otherwise.

Well ****... I love your responses to my questions Splatz, you are truly a great mentor and know your stuff. I have to respond to what you are saying because I feel differently about this forum and this thread. In order for me to understand a question, I might have a different question that is related to it that will help me better understand the original question. I am not trying to jump around, there is a reason for the questions. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and it should have NEVER been blown out of proportion like it did. It turned everything into a mess and frustrated us all. That is the moral of all this. Anyways, I'm going to give your response a good read and go from there. Thanks

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Old 05-06-2018, 08:04 PM   #31
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I would hope that anyone who is frustrated should leave the thread alone and let the others keep having a good healthy discussion. The problem is that this isn't happening. This isn't a class room, anyone is capable of not entering this thread without consequence. That is the beauty of a forum. This forum is meant for threads like this, at least imo it is a good place for it.

I'm only TWO pages deep with half of it just a bunch of arguing that I really don't want. I feel like the bad guy here and I don't even know why lol.

In order for me to understand a question, I found out that I need to know something else first, rather than giving up I simply ask it... I see no problem in that. The problem is that it is attracting a ton of negative attention. I have actually had no more than 2 - 3 questions in total, that are all related and will finally allow me to understand it all.

I just want to be left alone and have a healthy discussion for anyone who wants to truly have one lol. I'm ranting now because this is all so confusing to me. I just want to ask a couple questions and be at peace! I don't want anyone to be frustrated, but at the same time I can't control someone's emotions. I'm not the one calling someone dumb, all that has been unfortunately geared at me.

I'm finding that this might be a bit too much to ask for, because these threads keep getting ruined... At least if I'm not understanding something the thread WILL go to complete ****, and that isn't right. I don't care what you say, it's not right. If you are frustrated because someone isn't understanding something, then leave the thread alone. To start bullying the person is out of line, there is no convincing me otherwise.

Well ****... I love your responses to my questions Splatz, you are truly a great mentor and know your stuff. I have to respond to what you are saying because I feel differently about this forum and this thread. In order for me to understand a question, I might have a different question that is related to it that will help me better understand the original question. I am not trying to jump around, there is a reason for the questions. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and it should have NEVER been blown out of proportion like it did. It turned everything into a mess and frustrated us all. That is the moral of all this. Anyways, I'm going to give your response a good read and go from there. Thanks
So how can we help you and answer your questions you should post without a snarky apprentice I am the sheets attitude. I have been a member here for 11 years and the only time members have given a helper or apprentice and for that matter even an electrician a hard time is when they come across as a jackass. So think about that before you post some rants.

Please post a clear question without attitude and the members will gladly respond.
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:16 PM   #32
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So how can we help you and answer your questions you should post without a snarky apprentice I am the sheets attitude. I have been a member here for 11 years and the only time members have given a helper or apprentice and for that matter even an electrician a hard time is when they come across as a jackass. So think about that before you post some rants.

Please post a clear question without attitude and the members will gladly respond.
When have I ever given attitude in this thread? All my posts have been geared toward questions until it got crapped on. This thread has completely been hijacked and pooped on and who came here and did it? WASN'T ME?

Read both pages on this thread and see where I deserved this? I have to know. a couple individuals got fed up with me asking the same questions, because I wasn't understanding, and they lost their cool because I wasn't understanding. Instead of leaving the prior thread, it got to the point where they started basically calling me a dummy and saying things that are unnecessary. I guess my problem is that I replied to them, that is my downfall...

Then I try to be the bigger person and make peace with the person hijacking this thread and calling me a dummy, to try and get them to stop, and I still get pooped on? Like why am I the one at fault. You have to tell me where in this thread I deserved so much f'd up treatment. I have to know why emtnut and I have to stop having our peaceful discussion, and why I am at fault for the way this thread turned out?

This thread was meant for a question that I was confused about, and emtnut was kind enough to post it and help me and discuss with me about it. That is what the purpose of this thread is for. I didn't start any crap in this thread.

Edit: I don't care anymore. My downfall is replaying to unnecessary comments in too much of a serious manor. That is where I went wrong, and I'll learn from it. I'm done with all this, guys have a good one.

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Old 05-06-2018, 09:00 PM   #33
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It helps Jason run more pipe and wire in a day and lets us all know how smart emt guy is.

Wait. Neither one of those is true.

I have no idea.
I wouldn't have give Helmets a hard time had I knew he was your boyfriend ... not that there's anything wrong with that

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Old 05-06-2018, 10:56 PM   #34
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Edit: I don't care anymore. My downfall is replaying to unnecessary comments in too much of a serious manor. That is where I went wrong, and I'll learn from it. I'm done with all this, guys have a good one.
BINGO, attitude, attitude. "I don't care anymore", a good way to advance yourself in your career.

As I stated in 11 years here I cannot think of any helpers or apprentices that took crap where they were not a tad whinny or self-righteous.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:20 PM   #35
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With disagreements like this, I think it's beneficial for people on both sides to see the opportunity to develop a stronger sense of professionalism despite feeling frustrated with someone. At least that way you gain something out of it.
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Old 05-07-2018, 05:29 AM   #36
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With disagreements like this, I think it's beneficial for people on both sides to see the opportunity to develop a stronger sense of professionalism despite feeling frustrated with someone. At least that way you gain something out of it.
I've had situations (people) like this my entire life. I find that's it's sometimes not worth the energy it requires to maintain composure so I just move on to something else more enjoyable.
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:24 AM   #37
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With disagreements like this, I think it's beneficial for people on both sides to see the opportunity to develop a stronger sense of professionalism despite feeling frustrated with someone. At least that way you gain something out of it.
So if Jason has a question regarding anything electrical, let's start fresh. If he would repost his question or if he has an understanding of the issue despite all the discussion between the original post and here let us know, but please post any questions regarding the trade..
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:46 AM   #38
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@JasonCo - just a very brief response -

one, thanks for the very kind words;

two, a high tolerance for frustration is required in this business, I don't think this discussion has gotten over a 3/10 frustration rating, so NBD;

three, my main point, I believe you have come to a subject where your familiar way of learning - questions, dialog, discussion - is not going to get you what you want, and I suggest a different approach; I'll still participate in the discussion, but I may occasionally express that opinion.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:25 AM   #39
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@JasonCo.
You need to remember that this is a public forum. You will always get smart aZZ comments on anything posted here, even from the moderators. You can put up a picture of the most perfect install and guarantee someone will sh*t on it. Also many people here are old, retired and grumpy. In their day stuff was different. There is also a lot of exaggerating.
This place can be worse than an actual job site because people posting can hide behind their keyboards and say sh*t they normally would not to your face. You need to ignore the haters and just laugh it off. There are always a few informative posts mixed in with the bad, concentrate on them. Even the posts that you may take offence to will have some knowledge in them. It’s hard to type with expression and quite often you will read something differently than it was intended by the poster.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:03 AM   #40
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This isn't a knock on Jason but I specifically asked if he understood series, parallel circuits and basic theory and originally he stated he understood all of that.

I was going to mention Kirckoffs law and including the VD of the wire but sometimes in order to explain things you try to simplify concepts to make them more understandable. If I originally told him he can measure the voltage drop on the neutral it would of just muddy up the whole conversation.

I just think he needs to go back to series circuits and do some calcs.
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