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Old 07-25-2015, 01:58 PM   #461
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History has shown that people are more than willing to give up freedom in order to be protected by the government. The issue of licensing is no exception to that.
How does licensing fit that? It seems to me that it protects the public. No hacks means, theoretically, safer public. And the best way that I have heard of is regulated licensing. You have a better idea?
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Old 07-25-2015, 02:00 PM   #462
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How does licensing fit that? It seems to me that it protects the public. No hacks means, theoretically, safer public. And the best way that I have heard of is regulated licensing. You have a better idea?
Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.
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Old 07-25-2015, 02:03 PM   #463
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I'm not against training and qualifications. I'm against licensing. You seem utterly unable to comprehend this distinction.
Is it just the money?? I don't follow, and belive me, I am trying. How is the public to gauge the validity of your claimed qualifications, without some centralized(oh no, communism!!) authority? You want everyone rated by Yelp?
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Old 07-25-2015, 02:08 PM   #464
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Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.
I've read it all, thanks.
I just don't hear a reasonable alternative.
Of course a license doesn't totally protect the public. we live in a very imperfect world. Any attempts at perfection are futile, and narcissistic. However, since humans have trod on this ol rock, we have continued to strive for a better world(mostly). I see licensing as better than no licensing.
Please feel free to continue arguing your side, but you better come up with an alternate system.

And, no, I don't like licensing either. It's just the best we got.
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Old 07-25-2015, 02:10 PM   #465
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Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.
Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.

Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.

Why is that???






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Old 07-25-2015, 02:26 PM   #466
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Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.

Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.

Why is that???






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Old 07-25-2015, 03:18 PM   #467
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Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.

Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.



Can you please explain how you know that?
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:01 PM   #468
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So this entire argument boils down to a piece of paper that says you have training and are qualified? My clients assume I have that piece of paper and, on demand, I will show it to them.

This seems to be lost in the endless drivel that this thread has become. Having a license give my customers a certain comfort level. These are people who buy name brand corn flakes over generic corn flakes. I'm not interested in customers who buy generic corn flakes. I'm the name brand electrician over the generic electrician.

As industry insiders we can argue about this forever but, as a contractor, I am more interested in how I am seen through the eyes of the customer. That piece of paper has value and any cost that goes along with obtaining and maintaining it is money well spent.

It may give customers comfort, but only because they are lead to believe that license=God. In reality it means nothing.

Perfect example: You have no idea how easy it is to obtain a home inspectors license. In fact some organizations like Internachi will give you a certificate no questions asked just for paying or even posting in their forums. Realtors and buyers take every word they say being gold despite the fact every professional knows the greater the danger the more likely they are to miss it.

If I remember correct only 39 states require inspectors to actually hold a license, the others dont care. In both cases you see no difference. In both cases they miss defects and in both cases conflict of interest, politics and in the case of licensing imperfect training gets in the way. In the end they all miss dangers like un-permitted pools, but if the panel has a double tap everyone has to panic being danger of cataclysmic melt down.

While not as sever or in the same way our trade has the same flaws. Im not bashing anyone here but one place I see so many electricians lacking is in electrical theory. Some guys can recite the code in their sleep but ask them how or why any rule exists they have no clue.

Further, I know many of you will not get this, but its worth mentioning anyways. Bright minds are unwelcome in education. Example: If you went to take courses decades ago (heck even today) that taught you the purpose of a ground rod was to clear a fault do you really believe you will look smart in front of the students and teacher? Do you really believe you will pass those courses? Do you really believe anyone will view with respect or as patient or stable when you are trying to explain the very concept being taught will get people killed? Heck no. This is actually how nearly all ignorance is perpetuated: violent condemnation without investigation. Anyone with who know the truth or has 2 ounces of brain knows education has nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with conformity.

The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:15 PM   #469
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Can you please explain how you know that?
I know......HaHaHaHa!!
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:17 PM   #470
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The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.
Really? My apprenticeship certainly wasn't like this, and I seriously doubt that most electricians experienced it, either. My questions were answered, and I learned most of the skills I use today.

Licensing is not a "be all, end all" solution. It's simply a baseline requirement. However, the apprenticeship requirements (8000 hours of OJT, and 1000 hours of classroom), required before licensing, put most licensed electricians, here, well above non-licensed, in knowledge, safety, and skill.

That's my opinion, and no one, in this thread, has convinced me otherwise.
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:40 PM   #471
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I still have not seen peer reviewed proof that licensing should be removed. I've seen a study that showed that dental licenses did not increase the quality of work but did keep wages higher.

I believe the same of electrical. If license requirements were heavily enforced and all jobs inspected I imagine the rate of hack work and electrical fires would drop.

Though, you can't have that without funding the government and I I'm afraid we all can agree that the government are horrible at managing finances, making people less inclined to give extra money to the government.
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Old 07-25-2015, 05:07 PM   #472
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Cool story Chris
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Old 07-25-2015, 05:29 PM   #473
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Really? My apprenticeship certainly wasn't like this, and I seriously doubt that most electricians experienced it, either. My questions were answered, and I learned most of the skills I use today.

Licensing is not a "be all, end all" solution. It's simply a baseline requirement. However, the apprenticeship requirements (8000 hours of OJT, and 1000 hours of classroom), required before licensing, put most licensed electricians, here, well above non-licensed, in knowledge, safety, and skill.

That's my opinion, and no one, in this thread, has convinced me otherwise.

Maybe yours was not, but others do have those types. Take orders and dont ask questions. There have even been threads on here about that.

Yes you have 1000 hours of in classroom, but it lacks electrical theory. Im in the school of thought becoming an electrician should be like going to college to some degree. Theory, code, plus hands on for a well round individual.
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Old 07-25-2015, 05:30 PM   #474
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I still have not seen peer reviewed proof that licensing should be removed. I've seen a study that showed that dental licenses did not increase the quality of work but did keep wages higher.

I believe the same of electrical. If license requirements were heavily enforced and all jobs inspected I imagine the rate of hack work and electrical fires would drop.

Though, you can't have that without funding the government and I I'm afraid we all can agree that the government are horrible at managing finances, making people less inclined to give extra money to the government.

So you admit the government shouldn't have a say in this?
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:53 PM   #475
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It may give customers comfort, but only because they are lead to believe that license=God. In reality it means nothing.

Perfect example: You have no idea how easy it is to obtain a home inspectors license. In fact some organizations like Internachi will give you a certificate no questions asked just for paying or even posting in their forums. Realtors and buyers take every word they say being gold despite the fact every professional knows the greater the danger the more likely they are to miss it.

If I remember correct only 39 states require inspectors to actually hold a license, the others dont care. In both cases you see no difference. In both cases they miss defects and in both cases conflict of interest, politics and in the case of licensing imperfect training gets in the way. In the end they all miss dangers like un-permitted pools, but if the panel has a double tap everyone has to panic being danger of cataclysmic melt down.

While not as sever or in the same way our trade has the same flaws. Im not bashing anyone here but one place I see so many electricians lacking is in electrical theory. Some guys can recite the code in their sleep but ask them how or why any rule exists they have no clue.

Further, I know many of you will not get this, but its worth mentioning anyways. Bright minds are unwelcome in education. Example: If you went to take courses decades ago (heck even today) that taught you the purpose of a ground rod was to clear a fault do you really believe you will look smart in front of the students and teacher? Do you really believe you will pass those courses? Do you really believe anyone will view with respect or as patient or stable when you are trying to explain the very concept being taught will get people killed? Heck no. This is actually how nearly all ignorance is perpetuated: violent condemnation without investigation. Anyone with who know the truth or has 2 ounces of brain knows education has nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with conformity.

The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.
Copywrite this , and send it to all our trade rags, apprenticeship councils , tread leaders and shakers Meadow

But know that , inasmuch as we subscribe to it, a mertiocracy is about as probable as your truly bringing Hilly to full climax on CNN (copious amounts of top shelf a given)

All i can say is Ain't that a shame


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Old 07-25-2015, 07:08 PM   #476
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Copywrite this , and send it to all our trade rags, apprenticeship councils , tread leaders and shakers Meadow

But know that , inasmuch as we subscribe to it, a mertiocracy is about as probable as your truly bringing Hilly to full climax on CNN (copious amounts of top shelf a given)

All i can say is Ain't that a shame


~C (is that a Grod in your pocket, or do you just wanna sh&t me again)S~
If people could understand I would. It is a shame, but fortunately nothing knowledge cant fix. Getting people to drink a new drink besides kool-aid is the hard part.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:24 PM   #477
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So you admit the government shouldn't have a say in this?
I don't think removal of government is the best move, but I don't support their mismanagement of funds either.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:38 PM   #478
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Can you please explain how you know that?

He doesn't know anything.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:38 PM   #479
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I don't think removal of government is the best move, but I don't support their mismanagement of funds either.

Which they are probably doing right now with licensing?
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:10 PM   #480
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Maybe yours was not, but others do have those types. Take orders and dont ask questions. There have even been threads on here about that.

Yes you have 1000 hours of in classroom, but it lacks electrical theory.
And, you're wrong again. I had a full year of theory.

Also, you obviously don't know what's in the dozens of different apprenticeship programs around the US. You know what you experienced, and what's been written on here.

Stop pretending you know more than you do.

Last edited by Dan the electricman; 07-25-2015 at 10:15 PM.
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