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Old 02-23-2016, 08:43 PM   #1
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Default Hanging heavy lights on a furred wall.

We've got a project to replace 15 wall lights in an office space. The wall they are going on is drywall furred out on 2 by 4 steel studs. Behind the studs is a structural brick wall.

The existing lights are lightweight sconces hung on toggles. The existing wiring goes directly into the fixtures, there are no boxes in the walls.

The new lights are much heavier (about 20 lbs) and stick out from the wall. I've attached a picture of a similar light.

The goal is no drywall damage and match the layout of the old lights, but the footprint of the new light should allow us to cut a 4x4 to 4x6 inch hole in the drywall for blocking.

The plan is to open the wall to 4 by 4 inches, slip in a 8 inch long piece of treated 2 by 4, attach it flat to the wall and vertical with long Tapcons and liquid nail, then screw a deep 4 square to that and cover with a 1/2 inch 2gang mudring. Everything will get tapped for 8-32s

This should get us within a quarter inch of the wall surface, but do you think it'll be structurally sound? Any better ideas I'm open to advice, thanks.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:54 PM   #2
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I'm not sure if you can use it on a wall, but maybe the retro-fit ceiling fan boxes with brackets?

I imagine they are not approved for use on a wall, but I am too lazy to look it up!
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:02 PM   #3
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I'm not sure if you can use it on a wall, but maybe the retro-fit ceiling fan boxes with brackets?

I imagine they are not approved for use on a wall, but I am too lazy to look it up!
We thought about that but shot it down. Number one reason was that the studs are just flimsy steel not solid wood. Reason #2 was the the brackets would be horizontal in the wall and we need vertical rigidity because of how the lights hang away from the wall. Good thought though!
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:03 PM   #4
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In my experience, tapcons are excellent at lateral loads such as this. I was hanging some heaters today with 2 1/2" long tapcons. I was worried as the ~30 pound heaters were going to be hanging vertically from the tapcons that were driven into the ceiling of a parking garage. I mounted one of the brackets with 2 of the tapcons and hung my 180 lbs of weight off of it. They held great.

It sounds like the 8-32's are the weak link in your setup, but I think they should be fine, as the lights are probably designed to be hung by them.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year_Zero View Post
We thought about that but shot it down. Number one reason was that the studs are just flimsy steel not solid wood. Reason #2 was the the brackets would be horizontal in the wall and we need vertical rigidity because of how the lights hang away from the wall. Good thought though!
Didn't see the steel studs.... Been a long day, although.... Would be funny as hell to watch someone try to secure it to one!

So you have a 3-1/2" gap between the brick wall and the finished surface?

What about a pancake and two extensions? Tapcon or anchor the pancake, then just slap on the extensions?

Extensions are 1-1/2" right? ...... I have some, I could measure them, but I am off the clock!
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Didn't see the steel studs.... Been a long day, although.... Would be funny as hell to watch someone try to secure it to one!

So you have a 3-1/2" gap between the brick wall and the finished surface?

What about a pancake and two extensions? Tapcon or anchor the pancake, then just slap on the extensions?

Extensions are 1-1/2" right? ...... I have some, I could measure them, but I am off the clock!
From the brick to the drywall surface is 4-1/8" (3 and 1/2 plus 5/8 drywall)

This setup should get it right to the surface:
2x4 flat = 1-1/2
Deep 4 square= 2 and 1/8
Mudring = 1/2
Total 4-1/8"
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:17 PM   #7
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A toggle bolt through the face of the steel stud should be strong enough.

We have used this method for many heavy items. Since you toggle through the drywall and the stud, for this to fail you would have to pull the stud through the drywall.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nom Deplume View Post
A toggle bolt through the face of the steel stud should be strong enough.

We have used this method for many heavy items. Since you toggle through the drywall and the stud, for this to fail you would have to pull the stud through the drywall.
Existing locations don't fall on stud locations unfortunately and we need a box behind the new lights...
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:02 PM   #9
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I have lots of experience hanging Huge Heavy Chandeliers and Lights ...

Fans .

i never use the Box screws even when i can ( rated 50 lbs ) I always watch my " shear strength " .. The Lateral Forces on such hafdware ...


The other thing to watch is the " Separate Straps or Chains in Hung Ceilings .

I hung a 360 lb antique chandelier once ... It went good until we started laughing .

The Chandelier was made of metal , and only had one wire through it ...

The neutral is the body of the light ...

Billon $ People own such stuff ... and we hook it up ....

I GFCI it .. and 14 feet above floor .

I also make 2 pole disco so you can change the lights ...



Don

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Old 02-24-2016, 01:19 AM   #10
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Mount a 4SD box to the brick and add an extension ring and mud ring.

In my experience, Tapcons suck in block, but maybe they'd be better in brick?

Sleeve anchors are my anchor of choice when I want something really secure.

If the brick is solid enough (not too soft), some plastic anchors and 1.5" #10 sheet metal screws will likely hold them fine.....unless someone hangs on them.
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221 View Post
Mount a 4SD box to the brick and add an extension ring and mud ring.

In my experience, Tapcons suck in block, but maybe they'd be better in brick?

Sleeve anchors are my anchor of choice when I want something really secure.

If the brick is solid enough (not too soft), some plastic anchors and 1.5" #10 sheet metal screws will likely hold them fine.....unless someone hangs on them.

Well it is the Bricks that suck .

Rawl Plugs or the old plug stuff right down t0 a Drilled hole with apeice of wood in it work in Brick

If ever you need some thing in brick ...

we use unistrut or something mounted over several bricks and joints preferably getting to some concrete bond
.


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Old 02-24-2016, 04:17 AM   #12
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I think your plan with the 2x4 is fine but a little overbuilt. The construction adhesive is unnecessary and messy. The 2x4 is just a spacer, no need for it to be any longer than the box.

I'd assemble the box to the wood first, drill pilot holes through the box and wood, then place it and secure it with 1/4" x 3.75" tapcons. I don't like tapcons, but in this case they are adequate and allow an easy accurate installation. If you want something heavier, use 1/4" snaptoggles in the block.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:00 AM   #13
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I would cut a short piece of unistrut, use a couple of sleeve anchors to fasten it to the brick and use a unistrut nut or two to fasten either a 4" round box or a 1900 box with a ceiling ring. That ring and a round box come with 8-32 screw holes.

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Old 02-24-2016, 12:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Year_Zero View Post
We've got a project to replace 15 wall lights in an office space. The wall they are going on is drywall furred out on 2 by 4 steel studs. Behind the studs is a structural brick wall.

The existing lights are lightweight sconces hung on toggles. The existing wiring goes directly into the fixtures, there are no boxes in the walls.

The new lights are much heavier (about 20 lbs) and stick out from the wall. I've attached a picture of a similar light.

The goal is no drywall damage and match the layout of the old lights, but the footprint of the new light should allow us to cut a 4x4 to 4x6 inch hole in the drywall for blocking.

The plan is to open the wall to 4 by 4 inches, slip in a 8 inch long piece of treated 2 by 4, attach it flat to the wall and vertical with long Tapcons and liquid nail, then screw a deep 4 square to that and cover with a 1/2 inch 2gang mudring. Everything will get tapped for 8-32s

This should get us within a quarter inch of the wall surface, but do you think it'll be structurally sound? Any better ideas I'm open to advice, thanks.
Out here, the use of (treated) dimensional lumber is prohibited for steel and CBU construction.

What about drilling into the CBU -- I'll assume it's grouted all the way up -- and anchoring in all-thread -- with Simpson Strong-tie concrete epoxy?

You'd set a drilling template first... as in the back plate of the new fixtures.

Then you'd never need disturb the old work.

The pricey epoxy -- would solve the entire job with one go -- and the procedure would go very fast, slick and neat.

I'm presuming that these are not insulated cavities...
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
Out here, the use of (treated) dimensional lumber is prohibited for steel and CBU construction.

What about drilling into the CBU -- I'll assume it's grouted all the way up -- and anchoring in all-thread -- with Simpson Strong-tie concrete epoxy?

You'd set a drilling template first... as in the back plate of the new fixtures.

Then you'd never need disturb the old work.

The pricey epoxy -- would solve the entire job with one go -- and the procedure would go very fast, slick and neat.

I'm presuming that these are not insulated cavities...
Not sure of the description if its really red bricks or CMU.
OP

What is it?
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Old 02-25-2016, 03:57 PM   #16
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Old circa 1890 red brick.
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:38 PM   #17
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You will know after you drill your fist hole.

AZ structures don't generally go back quite that far but I've seen really hard and really soft brick.
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