how do you find out the value of Eol resistors - Page 2 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:50 PM   #21
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You need a picture of the duct detector wiring diagram or make/model number.

To me it looks like that's not the end of line resistor. It looks like it's tied into the remote test switch and or remote alarm. No telling what the value is supposed to be.

It is possible they put the end of line resistor in the duct detector. Maybe if it is tied in with a supervisor contact. To let you know someone left the cover off.

The EOL should really be in a more readily accessible device. But that's just my opinion.
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
Here we have laws that state only someone certified in fire alarm can touch a system that is in operation. Unfortunately no one enforces it but it is there.
Yes they should have a fire alarm tech troubleshooting it. I've done a lot of fire alarm, certainly don't know it all.

I think there is a rule that says after messing with it now, it all has to be retested? Maybe that's just playing with the program? This system probably doesn't have a program with an EOL though. I guess if it has no troubles, it's good to go?
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:07 PM   #23
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As long as he is careful and does not screw the system up best way to learn IMO.
Thatís definitely not the best way to learn. The best way to learn is to be instructed by an expert who will pass down his wisdom. Then go out and learn more on your own.

You say ďas long as he does not screw the system upĒ, how would he even know?
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:13 PM   #24
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Yes they should have a fire alarm tech troubleshooting it. I've done a lot of fire alarm, certainly don't know it all.

I think there is a rule that says after messing with it now, it all has to be retested? Maybe that's just playing with the program? This system probably doesn't have a program with an EOL though. I guess if it has no troubles, it's good to go?
Here you canít touch it unless your certified and if you do, that device, the one before it and the one after it must be tested.

Also, just because the troubles are clear, that does not mean it will work, especially a conventional system. Thatís why they have to now be tested.
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:23 PM   #25
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That is a system sensor DNR addressable duct detector housing, presumably with a notifier addressable head. An SLC does not use an EOL resistor for supervision. The test switch is not supervised. The relay module installed nearby for HVAC shutdown does not supervise it's outputs and the SLC again does not use an EOL for supervision.
Why do you even have a resistor in there?
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:28 PM   #26
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What I meant to ask is how do I know what resistor is supposed to be used
If the resistor is a EOL then you go by what the drawing calls for. (normally printed on the panel door which i believe you have posted a picture of)

If you understand that all the switchs (pull stations etc) are n/o then you have to realize that the panel will not be able to detect a broken wire. The fix for this problem was to install a resistor between the + and input at the end of the run (or loop from the last device back to the panel which is more expensive).

If the panel sees a resistance higher than 4.7k then it knows that there is a bad connection (how much higher before it sends a warning will be somewhere in the specs). If the panel sees a low resistance then it goes into alarm (a switch closing will make the resistance drop).

The alarm panel gives you a warnings and states the channel and the type of problem. This is probably why our boss told you to check the eol resistor.

I haven't done anything complicated just basic pull stations but that resistor doesn't look like its being used as a eol.
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:10 AM   #27
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IF it’s on a digital loop ( SLC loop ) then there should not be any EOL resistor.
If it’s connected to a monitor module then it needs a 4.7k EOL.
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:11 AM   #28
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Did you reuse the smoke head or is it new also ?
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:13 AM   #29
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That’s definitely not the best way to learn. The best way to learn is to be instructed by an expert who will pass down his wisdom. Then go out and learn more on your own.

You say “as long as he does not screw the system up”, how would he even know?
I recently did a fire alarm inspection at a bank. There were several types of smoke detectors all over the bank. The old salt I was with saved my ass by telling me beforehand which detectors not to smoke because they released Halon. We had to devise a cardboard shield to keep the smoke from reaching them.

Yeah, sure, send a newby out by himself to fix a fire alarm system.

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IF it’s on a digital loop ( SLC loop ) then there should not be any EOL resistor.
If it’s connected to a monitor module then it needs a 4.7k EOL.
and this:
Meter it then divide and conquer.
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:01 AM   #30
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....meaning no disrespect, but you shouldn’t be working on fire alarm systems alone
As long as he is careful and does not screw the system up best way to learn IMO.
...and how does he know if he screwed the system up? This isn’t a switch circuit where the light won’t work, it’s a life safety system that HAS to work properly when he walks away. . JMHO
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:53 AM   #31
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someone with experience should be doing this and teaching you.
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ElectricalArtist View Post
What I meant to ask is how do I know what resistor is supposed to be used
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by drsparky View Post
4.7K is common for a EOL resistor, the one in the photos is 5600 ohms. Put the correct resistor in and all will be well. Yellow Violet Red.
This was Post #9 and OP kept going on saying he doesn't know what size resistor is supposed to be in there.

color me confused.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
Thatís definitely not the best way to learn. The best way to learn is to be instructed by an expert who will pass down his wisdom. Then go out and learn more on your own.

You say ďas long as he does not screw the system upĒ, how would he even know?
48 years of doing this work and based on MY EXPERIENCE. IMO nothing beats hands on trying to troubleshoot a problem and KNOWING WHO TO CALl be it the manufacturer, or an associate. Add to that the almost unlimited knowledge available on the web and an electrician should be able to work through some of the toughest troubleshooting problems.

This site alone should be a major help to those trying to solve problems.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:34 PM   #35
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I disagree. Fire alarm is life safety.
So are generators, ATS, Fire Pumps and you tell me working on a 4000 amp circuit breaker that won't close is any less a problem if an electrician screws it up and the CB blows up.

I have worked on countless systems that are critical to buildings and by reading and understanding how components work was able to fix, repair or determine if the equipment needs replacement.

Here fire alarm systems require electricians that are certified as well. A friend now retired that serviced fire alarms for years told me the certifications were put in place by manufacturers and large EC's to try and cut smaller contractors out of the FA end of the business. No idea if that is true.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:36 PM   #36
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48 years of doing this work and based on MY EXPERIENCE.
I know, Brian. That's the problem, you have this "I did it myself, so that's the best way" mentality.

Well I am telling you right now, you are wrong.

I am not saying not to try things on your own. That is great, and there is a time and place. But nothing beats gleaning the priceless information from the hundreds of other people who have been in your shoes beforehand, and passed that information along.

After that, then you can try it out yourself. But there is no reason to handicap yourself by not accepting information and training just because you want to pound your chest and tell everyone that you did it yourself.

Quote:
Add to that the almost unlimited knowledge available on the web and an electrician should be able to work through some of the toughest troubleshooting problems.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that said electrician can't benefit from excellent training.

Quote:
This site alone should be a major help to those trying to solve problems.
This site is not here to help unqualified people work on life-safety systems that they clearly do not understand, and have no way of knowing whether the system still works when they leave. Even the OP agrees to that.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:41 PM   #37
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I know, Brian. That's the problem, you have this "I did it myself, so that's the best way" mentality.

Well I am telling you right now, you are wrong.

I am not saying not to try things on your own. That is great, and there is a time and place. But nothing beats gleaning the priceless information from the hundreds of other people who have been in your shoes beforehand, and passed that information along.

After that, then you can try it out yourself. But there is no reason to handicap yourself by not accepting information and training just because you want to pound your chest and tell everyone that you did it yourself.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that said electrician can't benefit from excellent training.

This site is not here to help unqualified people work on life-safety systems that they clearly do not understand, and have no way of knowing whether the system still works when they leave. Even the OP agrees to that.

Hack Never meant to say having a good teacher is not helpful or important BUT FOR ME nothing has helped me more than having my feet to the fire and having to fix a problem.

It has been years since I worked on fire alarm systems and they have drastically changed. From what I have seen with newer FA systems you need the software to make any changes.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:01 PM   #38
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So are generators, ATS, Fire Pumps and you tell me working on a 4000 amp circuit breaker that won't close is any less a problem if an electrician screws it up and the CB blows up.

I have worked on countless systems that are critical to buildings and by reading and understanding how components work was able to fix, repair or determine if the equipment needs replacement.

Here fire alarm systems require electricians that are certified as well. A friend now retired that serviced fire alarms for years told me the certifications were put in place by manufacturers and large EC's to try and cut smaller contractors out of the FA end of the business. No idea if that is true.
Critical to buildings is not as important as critical to life safety of the tenants.

Yes working on electrical is dangerous as well but we are talking about a system where it's whole purpose is to save lives. The main idea is that once a fire alarm system is installed, tested and operational, NO ONE can alter it unless they are trained and certified to do so. This system must also be tested thoroughly every year to ensure it will work as intended, to get people out of a burning building.

Here the certification is put in place by the fire marshal for the province, not the manufacturers. We have two different certs that are both recognized by the fire marshal, has nothing to do with manufacturers at all.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:49 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by brian john View Post
Hack Never meant to say having a good teacher is not helpful or important BUT FOR ME nothing has helped me more than having my feet to the fire and having to fix a problem.

It has been years since I worked on fire alarm systems and they have drastically changed. From what I have seen with newer FA systems you need the software to make any changes.
Brian you are use to industrial so the rules are a little more blurred due to self insurance. A lot of the stuff you work with is not off the shelf standard equipment so you have to get use to learning quickly and know how to test your own work.

In this case i have to agree that the OP is out of his depth if doesn't understand the basics. On a good note the panel is fairly smart and will show troubles and make annoying bleeping sounds until someone comes along and fixes the problems.
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Old 10-13-2018, 04:56 AM   #40
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....meaning no disrespect, but you shouldnít be working on fire alarm systems alone
exactly correct.
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