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I need advice on my options

3K views 34 replies 12 participants last post by  Easy 
#1 ·
I’m a 43 yo living in southern WV and am considering getting into the trade. Having a hard time deciding how to go about it though. I’ve talked to the union, I’ve talked to a couple non-union contractors. My options are

Go union apprenticeship route

Go straight to work for contractor

Go to local technical school for ten months

Here’s the deal. I love to learn. Not a day goes by without me trying to teach myself something. It’s almost an addiction to the point that I’ll give myself headaches with all the info I try to cram in. Being that, what I’d most would like to do is go through the union apprenticeship. Because from what I hear, they tend to offer the most well rounded training.

However, to be frank, I don’t want to be working 60 hours a week\6 days a week or more in places two hours out of town. And that’s definitely the impression I got out of the union “boss” that I spoke too. I was basically told I go where I’m told and for how long I’m told. Is this truly the way it is?

There is one local contractor that I particularly liked that said he never sends anyone more than an hour out of town, have weekends off, and claims he can teach me as well as the union. He seemed desperate for help and said he could put me straight to work. He claims he can’t keep help due to people can’t pass a drug test and bad attitudes. The only thing I worry about is maybe he is just full of **** and I’ll find he can’t keep help due to himself or some jw he has being an asshole.

The technical school seems intriguing due to the fact I could learn without pressure. However, I don’t know if it’s worth 5000 dollars or not. I’m new around here and don’t know anyone that’s been.

Lastly, I was a gopher for a rather large industrial electrical company in my early twenties. I remember wrestling large three phase wire, screwing three inch metal pipe, and carrying 3/4 inch bundles of pipe all over the jobsite. So I know what I’m getting myself into, physically wise. Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
I went to a 6 month pre apprenticeship and I really enjoyed it, but it's a long time off work and a lot of money. Also it's really designed for people with no construction experience at all, so you probably wouldn't benefit as much. I also served a non union apprenticeship and I think I turned out to be a pretty well rounded electrician. One important thing is making sure you're exposed to a wide variety of tasks in the trade, which means if you're getting pigeon holed it's to your benefit to ask to be shown other things or to move to another company where you will be. I've been told that's where the "journey" in journeyman comes from. I don't know where you're located (please finish filling out your profile), but that has a bearing on whether to go union or non.

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#3 ·
"Also it's really designed for people with no construction experience at all"

To be honest, I almost feel like I have no experience again, since it's been twenty years. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't remember how to bend any kind of offset nineties or serve up wire the correct way. I'm sure I couldn't wire up a three way switch if asked to right now, I don't think I ever did doing my previous electrical work. Like I said, I was mostly just a gopher that also bent pipe and pulled wire now and again. I don't want to be that dude walking on a jobsite acting like I deserve credit for things I did twenty years ago. Thanks.
 
#6 ·
When I say no construction experience, I mean someone who has never stepped on a jobsite, someone who doesn't know a hammer from a screwdriver. The tasks you are describing can be picked up again in your first week on the job.

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#4 ·
I'd say get your ass to work with the local contractor, and see if it works for you. If the boss is an ass, you still have the other two options available to you.


Its better getting paid to learn, than paying to learn, and stay close to home, like you want.


Just a thought...
 
#5 · (Edited)
I’m a 43 yo living in southern WV and am considering getting into the trade.
Well first off, don't give anybody $5,000 to train you when you can get practically free training from an apprenticeship either union or non.

I began training as a union electrician at age 46. (I've talked about this many times, search for my posts.) I enjoyed it even though a few of the j-men were a-holes to me just because they like to harass apprentices. (I got harassed much less than the young pups since I was as old or older than the j-men I was working with.) I just smiled and let it roll off my back because I knew in five years I would be a j-man myself and be treated with more respect. And I knew exactly what my pay would be.

While I favor union training, if you have a non-union shop that is willing to put you to work right now and train you, there is no reason to avoid them. You can always quit and join the union program. In fact, this will lead to a more rounded education since you can see what it's like working for the "dark side".

However, to be frank, I don’t want to be working 60 hours a week\6 days a week or more in places two hours out of town. And that’s definitely the impression I got out of the union “boss” that I spoke too. I was basically told I go where I’m told and for how long I’m told. Is this truly the way it is?
Every local is a little different. I can't speak to what the rules are for yours. Apprentices usually are required to do what they are told, but j-men decide if they want a job or not. In my local, we are never required to work overtime. That said the employer may be looking only for people willing to do so, if you refuse, you may get layed off. If you discuss this with the employer immediately upon hiring, and they don't want you, you just go back to the hall and can take the next job. I generally avoided overtime since I treasure both money and time off.
 
#7 ·
While I favor union training, if you have a non-union shop that is willing to put you to work right now and train you, there is no reason to avoid them. You can always quit and join the union program. In fact, this will lead to a more rounded education since you can see what it's like working for the "dark side".

I do my best work in the dark, if you get my drift...
 
#8 ·
Now days education matters when it come to landing a good job in the electrical trade. Once you are hired you may not use most of what you have learned in school but you will have a much better chance of getting hired in a job you enjoy. Most of the jobs I see where I live is for Solar work, installing ceiling fans and stuff like that. The rest of the jobs are mostly Journeyman or foreman level jobs that require lots of travel time. It just all depends on where you live and who you decide to work for. When I started out I did not have a clue but was lucky to work for a large company that trained their employees. That job ended after about a year and the next job was in Texas but I was not willing to travel so I had to really try hard to get another job in my area. I finally found a job working in a small company and really had to bust ass to keep that job as the pace was brutal. I really don't think you need that much knowledge starting out you just need to produce if your in construction. Personally I would rather work with someone who is eager to work rather than someone who has lots of knowledge. Believe me I struggled to find work after my first year. I finally went to a small shop and begged them to take me on. I even told them to just let me work there for a week with no pay and that got me the the job. Of course they did pay me and I stayed there 3 years and finally took the test and received my JW card. From that point on it was easy to find work.
 
#9 ·
"Well first off, don't give anybody $5,000 to train you when you can get practically free training from an apprenticeship either union or non."

IDK. I feel like if the school is decent, I might learn and be exposed to a lot more as opposed to being pigeon holed for a year just to see if I got the right attitude or not. I might not necessarily get a head start on my standing with future jws or a potential boss due to it, buy I'm not really in it to seek approval of other people, I'm in it to learn.
But yea, I'd kick myself if I could see into the future and realize I might have been paired up with someone that actually cared about teaching me and got paid for it as opposed to going to a school. I guess I'm just kind of gun shy about employers telling me how I could advance and learn through them throughout the years, only to find out they were full of B.S. and that I wasted my time.
 
#11 ·
IDK. I feel like if the school is decent, I might learn and be exposed to a lot more as opposed to being pigeon holed for a year just to see if I got the right attitude or not. I might not necessarily get a head start on my standing with future jws or a potential boss due to it, buy I'm not really in it to seek approval of other people, I'm in it to learn.
But yea, I'd kick myself if I could see into the future and realize I might have been paired up with someone that actually cared about teaching me and got paid for it as opposed to going to a school. I guess I'm just kind of gun shy about employers telling me how I could advance and learn through them throughout the years, only to find out they were full of B.S. and that I wasted my time.
If you are concerned about the employer screwing you in some way, then going union is what you need. The union's main purpose is to protect you from employer abuses. And the apprenticeship school's main purpose is to make sure your education is as complete and diverse as possible. They will purposely pull you out of an employer you've been with too long and place you with another employer to make sure your OJT is diverse as well.
 
#10 ·
If you are in an urban area, I think it would be a mistake to pass up the union spot if you can indeed get in. It's much easier to go from union to non-union than vice versa.

If you are out in the boondocks and don't want to travel to urban areas to work, or relocate to where the union work is, you might be OK with a GOOD non-union contractor.

Do yourself a favor and go over the compensation - wages AND BENEFITS - very carefully, with an accountant if possible, so you see if the non-union contractor is really in the ball park with what they're offering.
 
#12 ·
First, trade school is foolish. You can get paid to learn so......

Union VS non union is a personal decision. I was in the IBEW apprenticeship in the early 70's for a year. The schooling was done by experienced journeymen and was very good. However, they also schooled you on the union way which did not appeal to my way of thinking at all so I bailed. Most people look at the journeyman wages as a goal but I looked at them as a cap.

I was very ambitious and thought I could do better by making my own decisions. I loathed the 9 to 5 factory work routine and I only joined the union because the workers for my employer voted to be represented. I tried it, hated it and ended up contracting and retiring.

Also, it is a tough way to earn a living so save some money. You body will start breaking down in your 60's and humping up and down a ladder will not be as easy as it once was.
 
#32 ·
First, trade school is foolish. You can get paid to learn so......

Union VS non union is a personal decision. I was in the IBEW apprenticeship in the early 70's for a year. The schooling was done by experienced journeymen and was very good. However, they also schooled you on the union way which did not appeal to my way of thinking at all so I bailed. Most people look at the journeyman wages as a goal but I looked at them as a cap.

I was very ambitious and thought I could do better by making my own decisions. I loathed the 9 to 5 factory work routine and I only joined the union because the workers for my employer voted to be represented. I tried it, hated it and ended up contracting and retiring.

Also, it is a tough way to earn a living so save some money. You body will start breaking down in your 60's and humping up and down a ladder will not be as easy as it once was.
Here in St. Louis, MO. it's not a personal, it's a birth right. Fortunately the situation has changed over the last 35yrs. There are alternatives that don't care who your daddy is. True, during a boom economy you can get started with out Trade school. During a bust economy, Trade school is what got me in the door. More recently, the state of Missouri has stepped up to the plate to deal with St. Louis Cit-ay and County who try to deny NON ibew contractors from contracting.
 
#13 ·
It's kind of a "catch 22" Union Construction work is by far better for wages and benefits as well as protection against rouge management. Non union can be great for training opportunities as well. Non union can also offer the same benefits or better but it's so hard to find jobs of that caliper. I can only go by my own experiences I have learned more hands on construction skills working non-union. More verity of construction work as well. Mostly the mechanics of it all. Bending pipe and stuff like that. If I had to chose I would certainly work union only because of my age. If I thought I might want to have my own shop and I was a youngster I would probably go non union. If you decide to go to school think of what you want to do. You like to learn... so perhaps automation would be a good fit for you. It's a big deal now days. My son makes far more money than I do as a spec-1 technician. What ever that is? He puts in long days and travels often but he also sits in his living room on his laptop commissioning systems. Personally as for school pick something you are passionate about. I could never afford to go to school and work. Fortunately a Local I worked for provided school for free as long as you got passing grades. If you have the luxury to go to school your really should. 5k is not that much money for education so it's probably money well spent. My experience with education is mixed. It's never specific enough to fully train you. OJT is the best if you are around the knowledgeable people.
 
#14 ·
Concerning a comment I read about the union being there to protect you from employer abuses. I'm not here to start arguments for or against the union. But I feel the requirement to work over 40 hours a week, week in-week out, is an abuse. I mean, I don't mind giving my all for 40, and I understand situations arise that require more. But from my experience in the past and what I've seen, 50-60-70 hours a week is a standard. And from what I understand, in the union, yea I don't have to work overtime, but it's obviously frowned upon and seems to be a way to put you at a dead end real fast. My cousin is a union lineman. Makes good money, but I'm pretty sure I've been around his kids growing up more than he has. I'd love to support a union, but if I feel like I have to leave home and work myself to the bone, just to be accepted. I don't know if five years of that life is worth it. If I was 21 again, I'd be all for it, but I kind of have an established role here at home now and other responsibilities other than to be available for some other company/union twenty-four seven.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Overtime is more a function of the employer than the union. I agree that some union shops do get lots of overtime but if your kids are grown and you want to retire before age 65 working as an electrician you might want some overtime. I wish I had overtime like I had working union. Most of the overtime offered to me as a union member was from the company I worked for and all the members fought for it. We had an "overtime wheel" set up by my employer and managed by the union Stewart. Some people took all the OT they could while others never worked overtime. Some hardly ever even showed up to work at all. They were never fired and always protected by the union. It probably just depends on the local you work out of.
 
#15 ·
I got out today and talked to a few more people. I went to the technical school and it seems that the local union accepts their program as a year of apprenticeship if I so chose to join afterwards. Seems as a lot of the training there is OTJ, doing what they basically describe as charity work. So yea, I'd be working for nothing and I don't know who would be receiving the benefits of that. But I did get to go check out the classroom and it seemed pretty nice. Stations to do residential wiring, motors, low voltage, and even some PLC stuff. Nice tools given to you, all Klein. Teacher was a good salesman, because he read my mind and talked about how if you went straight to work for a company, that you may be digging trenches and playing gopher for a year before they start teaching you anything.

The school says it's very likely, given my situation, that I'll have all my school paid for by a grant. I wouldn't have to pay back anything. What I may end up doing, as some have suggested, is just going straight to work for the non-union shop. Signing up for the school if it does turn out to be cost free, and if I don't feel like I'm learning much with the current shop, I'll just continue on to the school. After the school, use those hours towards the union after researching it and thinking about it more.
 
#19 ·
. Teacher was a good salesman, because he read my mind and talked about how if you went straight to work for a company, that you may be digging trenches and playing gopher for a year before they start teaching you anything.
Teacher was a good salesman because he gets bonuses on commissions.
At your age, you should know when you are being sold something.

As far as 40 hours a week being abusive? You are screwed no matter what you do. I think you want to go to school because you don't want to go to work. I get that. I never wanted to work a day in my life but the alternatives were unappealing to me.
 
#24 ·
I mean $5000 to donate grunt work for a year versus low wages and free school for doing grunt work for a year ... do the math :smile:

Keep in mind the union loves getting you for low wages that first year, working that year for low wages is part of what pays for the "free" union education.

Why would the union want to accept the trade school certificate? Is the union hard up for 2nd year apprentices?

I am sure it's not a guaranteed acceptance into the union - maybe it's a guarantee you won't get into the union.
 
#29 ·
I was just talking about this on another thread. There are two places by here, on their boxes it says "Best Pizza in Town." As mind blowing as that is on it's own, guess what? Both their pizza sucks. So if you're ever in town, please, don't believe everything it says on the pizza boxes.
 
#30 ·
Overtime is one of the most contentious issues on any jobsite. Some guys cry that they aren't getting any OT, others cry that they are getting too much. I know guys that screwed up their families because they worked so much OT that they were never home. Want the job, work the overtime. Quit bellyaching.

Mandatory OT is rare but not illegal. It's an employers choice.

In my younger day I liked overtime for the bucks. Now days I would want to work zero overtime, leave it for the hungry young guys with families.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Any man should be able to work and compete for wages in the electrical trade, or any other trade, in the US or Canada, even St. Louis. I believe Union or Non Union does not matter the work should simply go to the best man.
If I was starting out and trying to pursue a carrier in the electrical field in the year 2020 I might research types of jobs related to electrical. Lot's of choices I'm sure. Power companies, Phone companies, Machine Shops, or what ever. Look for wages and stability. But more importantly do what you like. Not all electrical work is construction.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Yes all those places have electrical work of some sort, but IMHO you really haven't learned this trade unless you have worked industrial and commercial jobs where you had to install big pipes, big apparatus, big wire, and high voltage. My company does 99% residential work, but the 10 years of commercial and industrial work prior to that are my base and I would feel much less qualified if I didn't have it.
 
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